Shamanism its practical challenges a... 
Sagitta
14 y
3,746
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I have been looking at various post in this forum. I know nothing of shamanism, but from what I have observed based on your experiences;i-There is no concensus on the interpretation or treatment of problems;ii-there seems to be no resolution to problems;iii- Although well meaning and moral people are involved the religion seems to invit ea lot of problems that seldom occur outside of the shamanic world;iv-There are no structures in place dedicated to assisting and making whole again any 'soldier'that gets wounded in 'battle'; v- It seems to be unsafe for people to practise outside of structured environment or a culture; vi- Shaminism has to document its vast knowledge base, redefine some of its beliefs like all great religions do and create a better structure for passing on, and preservation of knowledge if it is to survive and remain relevant in a modern world.It should also recognise modern medicine and psychiatry as sometimes necessary alternatives.
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- Re: Shamanism its practical challeng... vairagi
14 y
3,203
This is a reply to # 1,626,936Just as discussion; it may be helpfull to consider the mindset that has been building bridges using Newtonian understanding and doesnt have a place for those embracing Einsteinian or Quantum understanding when used for cataloguing physical behavior or perhaps in traveling beyond the earth.
The conventional outwardly conscious oriented individual while seemingly healthy in their physical orientation isnt aware that the subconsciousness plays a role in their reality that is actually more pervasive than the waking consciousness knows. Similar to how when we look at the sky in daylight and only percieve so far, yet when nighttime comes and we look, we realize the vastness of things, and if we consider how many frequencies are coming into the atmosphere at all moments, that we cannot see w eye sight, we start to understand how little our conventional consciousness is really dealing with and using to create and encorporate philosophies and understandings.
To think that the larger must somehow come down to the smaller level to prove or to affect or to have validity is the beggining of realizing the larger, however it is still an incomplete viewpoint of things and eventually the considerer must take the voyage beyond the smaller and its limited position.
The cataloging of which you speak is only hidden to the unwilling and the unready. Thus unnecessary to be delinated in conventional terms and when done so most often become conventionlized, depowered and confusing, used more as tools for debate rather than as tools of awakening to the larger reality as is meant.
The larger reality of which shammanic traditions deal with, as one of many larger considering reality orientations, have a set of particulars which are necessary and true to that position, and incorporate the smaller as needed, as appropriate, but in ways that often confound the smaller seemingly complete rendering .
As the mental orderings have to the smaller physical, and as in the analogy, how the multi dimensional position deals with the Newtonian positions.
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- Re: Shamanism its practical challeng... Sagitta
14 y
3,047
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This is a reply to # 1,627,177Vairagi, I am in no way trying to be dismissive or disrespectful of Shamanism. To believe that Newtonian branch of physics explains every thing there is to know would be shortsighted. I am a very practical person. I see the larger picture as well as the details. The smaller is often a microcosm of the larger. The small details go into making life run a little smoother. To use an analogy; Suppose I was building a house, I would first see in my mind's eye a picture of what the house would look like. In order to move to the production phase I would then need details in the form of architectural drawings, bill of quantities etc, without which the results may be erratic. Similarly I am saying that since Shamanism is probably the oldest religion in the world, and problems that I have seen on this forum would obviously have been occuring for centuries, then in the same way that we who follow the "Newtonian understanding" of the world, as you would put it, are familiar with hygeinic practice to avoid being contaminated with parasites, and should we become contaminated how to rid the body of them, or who to go to. Similarly people who in the practice of Shamanism encounter "demonic parasites" should have the knowledge to deal with it at their finger tips. Surely in the interest of survival such knowledge should be disseminated as basic training. I don't have to know because I am not a Shaman, but before every Shaman takes his first 'journey' shouln't he or she be equipped? Would you send your son to climb the Andes without company and a survival kit?
What disturbed me about some of posts, (more than one member), is that people seem to be practising this religion with no safety net at the risk of their sanity. Little preparation for the known hazzards of the trade, no expert trouble shooters and no physical community support, seem like walking a tightrope, and that is a reality whether you view it from the physical,or spiritual viewpoint. In order for a practioner to be helpful to others he has to be healthy enough to be functional.
My question is, are there oversight committees, and experts that practioners can be referred to, and better still are people fully appraised of the hazzards and do trainers teach students what to do in the event of such traumas occuring?
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- Re: Shamanism vairagi
14 y
3,315
This is a reply to # 1,627,209w re to shamanism, traditionally little needs to be catalogued because the experience is the exclusive teacher and furthermore it is taught that whatever happens dont fear and dont give up the journey.If you do fear keep journeying, forget about what society says you should be doing, figure it out, your self, it wll happen quickly if you go for it.
Problem is many pursue these types of situations for the egoicly satisfying expereince and thats an immature motivation which often results in the outcomes that show how much need there is to actually grow in awareness. Still the answer in shamanism is not different than the reasons tradtionally,intially given for pursuing awareness, which is is to pursue avenues of awareness.
It may be trite to say that we have no thing to fear but fear itself, and it may seem too simple to say that fear is only false evidence appearing real, but this is what the teachers tell us, and this is what we experience when we really commit ourselves to awakening.It doesnt disscount the difficulty just assists us in knowing that when we hang in there, things always change. Perhaps not as fast as society or our ego would like but none the less , peace is always waiting after the energy of delima has played itself out. So lets learn how not to feed delima.
So usually we got there because we werent really that into the hard in the first place and now we would like an easy way out. There are easy ways out but these usually dont provoke understanding but rather a more sophisticated layer of artificiality, fear and stasis. Untill we crack the self imposed prison of the synaptic shell we will not be able to enjoy the cosmic yolk.
The understanding is that if we are troubled by restless spirits, then attempt to communicate, start a relationship, try to find out what it is that we might do for such. We might find it scarey or worse but in actuality no thing can harm us except the lack of understanding and awareness re existence that we harbor. So we put out our storm jib, haul in our mainsail. We learn to stop making waves so we can focus on the waves that are coming our way and rather than trying to hide in fear and have the waves surf us, we learn to ride them.
Teachers remind us that pain is a great focus, we can use it to build concentration. Seeking it as an avenue into awareness is certaily different than when we find it thrust upon us, but its power is real and we ultimately find it is only another vibration, a frequency, a message, that we as people mentally unwittingly turn into suffering.
I tried to stay on topic but i find many tangents, I figure you know much of this, hope it assists you in your understanding of shammanism , and though it is arcane and ancient, I always feel its roots in all the belief systems.
- Re: Shamanism Sagitta
14 y
3,158
This is a reply to # 1,627,362Wow! thanks for taking the time to explain to me. Ican't say that I understand,or agree with all of the reasoning, for example "The understanding is that if we are troubled by restless spirits, then attempt to communicate, start a relationship, try to find out what it is that we might do for such." That sort of negates the reality that a restless spirit might be malicious, and not interested in being helped, it might even be interested in dictating to the shaman, and controlling the person thus leading him to do things that are not in keeping with his character like someone on this forum alluded to. Then if the Shaman looses the battle of will, would it be worth it to himself personally and to the larger society, who may be adversely affected by any actions that he might take while he is being controlled or obsessed.
I am viewing this from the perspective of a cautious person who believes that a person really needs to be well informed and count the cost, weigh them against the benefits BEFORE setting out on any venture in all areas of life, and have a plan B or a parachute if thing go wrong. From your explanation I gather that the Shamanic way is to learn as you go along and embrace the pain as you go along! Civilisation could not have reached this stage without diversity, but on the other hand look at the impact that the oil spill is having on the Gulf coast. Maybe if BP had a proper clean up plan in place the damage could have been minimalised. There are lessons to be learned from that. Everyone has to know what is right for him/her. To each his own. This is why we have such a wonderful world!- Re: Shamanism Sagitta
14 y
3,039
This is a reply to # 1,627,638I also wanted to round off whatI was saying above with these comments; Sometimes we are not well qualified to assess our suitability for a particular position in life. It is all to easy to use spirituality to escape from the other side of life. I think that I am correct in saying that if I cannot hold a job, achieve stable meaningful relationships, manage my time and money, conquer distructive habits and show other signs of being a well balanced individual then I am not ready to be a Shaman, Pastor, Priest, Iman or Guru but need to consentrate on achieving these more mundane goals that help me to be a balanced, and whole individual. Sometimes that is the path for some of us. Maybe if we honestly checked ourselves for readiness and suitability first, although some pain is necessary, like Vairgari said, for growth then the pain might be more manageable and there would be fewer horror stories.
- Re: Shamanism vairagi
14 y
3,296
This is a reply to # 1,627,811To add to this thread: ( just a bit carried away)
It is certainly true as you surmised that unless we can deal appropriately w money, food, sex ect, our inner journeying will only be a facsimile and our struggle will be of what it is we havent dealt with yet.If we are ready its not evan our action to throw caution to the wind, we are empelled and there is no consideration of any backup plan, because its the inner knowing of the burgeoning of love. Tho completly contrary to most present societies norms, this is the unveiling of why we are here.
Restless spirits are no different in intention than those we live around. For most of us the person in the car next to us on the freeway is really far more dangerous then the angry, evan malevolent emotional realm being we may encounter. It can be totally scarey tho, to the ego, of course. These journeys are destructive of the egoic identity, so to the degree we are holding tight, we suffer or not. We are entrappable or not.
Certainly there are small print caveats to all of this and the reality of possesion ect probably shouldnt be ignored,evan if shamans do. But as in all our experiences, our motivations, in this instance, for leaving the physical realm, play the strongest influence in our experience.
However evil is only sad ignorance, evan in its most fullblown forms. Everyone wants to be attended too, (untill we see clearly) especially the cruelest among us. So as we learn to discipline ourselves and listen and learn we can face those physically embodied or not. Those who want to rob us or those who want to hurt us, w the same care that we learned to treat our own fragile confused ego which acted so stupidly at one time, so as to rather than feed confusion and misunderstanding, we defuse tension and assist real learning.
Eventually we understand that the tragedy of oil spills and such, are part of an era where, tho now in these last number of thousands of years, is surely out of ballance, still this is a continuum where self oriented parasitic living is the norm, and to missunderstand the deeper ballance in that and to embrace any hope of conventional societal happiness, is missplaced and unaware. We can have peace about it and the farther we go on the journey the more perfect and already ballanced w find everything to be. As this is revealed we see how its part of the irony and cosmic joke that makes everything acceptable. Working to try and make it all conventionally perfect, safe and secure for all,tho, is only part of our well meaning but ignorant attempts at seeking security in ways that will be found to be insufficient and ultimately counterproductive.
So in struggling and experiencing this seeming contradictory confusion we are learning about all the potential paths to peace.Eventually following the one that fits us best whether shamanic or otherwise. Eventually discovering the place beyond all space and time, gross or fine, which embraces and sources all things.
When the concern we have for others caught in the terror of such a world, bring us to our knees, and when we feel the pain in our hearts for all life's suffering , no matter the circumstances of responsibility, guilt, ignorance or innocence, we are really ready for the path of the shaman. The path of no BS, no nice words, no words at all, no preperation, just path.
(The commonly considered path of the shaman is the path of the journey beyond the physical, not particularly beyond all space and time, tho that is where it will lead to those who go the distance, where it is found that there is really no path anywhere, only life to be lived and we dont need to go anywhere to find it, we dont need to do any thing to be worthy of gaining the rewards of it, cause its us at the root and thru and thru and has been all the time.)
- My Own Paranormal Story Sagitta
14 y
3,139
This is a reply to # 1,628,361Vairagi; By now you have probably guessed that I have a personal interest in all of this.This is my story. I have long been seeking a rational explanation for it. I hope that you and indeed others can give me some in sights into it.
When I was a teenager as far as I can recall, about 14 years old I lived with my mother next door to my grandmother's house. One of my uncles who was going through divorce and had turned to alcohol for comfort was living at my grandmother at the time, since he had been unable to keep a job due to his alcoholism.
I came home from Pilgrim Holiness sunday school class one evening and went to Gran's house. In those days we would be given a 'golden text' to learn and meditate on during the week. intent on doing so I picked up this black 'bible' laying on Granny's table. On flipping through the pages I saw a few chapter headings that were similar tobut different from biblical books. One had a name like Esterius,if my memory serves me correctly. There were one or twosimilar names. I had read a school book called 'Legends and Myths of Greece and Rome', so immediately I started to think that I was looking at a Greek bible. I flipped to the front to read the foreword and saw wordslike 'Dedicated toour Master The Prince of Darkness"In horror i flung the bookout of my hand back onto the table and called my grandmother and showed her the book.
Granny furiously confronted my uncle about this book and asked him to remove it from her house. He agreed but instead,as we later found out,merely hid the bookina wardrode.
A few months later I was at Granny's house lying in bed beside her. I suddenly hadthis strange feeling that I was floating about three ( 3) feet above the bed. I had felt no sense of how I got there. As soon as I felt it I shouted to my grandmother to tell her what was happening. Before I could get pass the word 'Gran' we heard this yell of terror from my uncle, who was in his bedroom. Granny asked him what was the matter. (I don't think that at that instant I was still floating.) My uncle's answer was chilling. These were his words " Satan is attacking me". The sequence of what happened next is blurred. I remember granny grabbing the bible and repeating "The Lord is my shepherd and rushing to my uncle's bedroom. As I passed my uncle's open bedroom door there he was lying spreadeagled on his bed.Facing the ceiling, the wooden bedstead was bouncing up and down which explained the strange clattering which was heard from my grandmother's bedroom. I rushed out of the house with the speed of Usain Bolt. To this day, my granny who passed many years ago has never mentioned the matter to me since that day. My uncle died tragically in a dibetic coma, brought on by alcohol abuse. He continued to have a tortured existance, until he died.
I often wonder what was the significance of it all? As a ratioalist I do not know how to interpret this.
- Re: My Own Paranormal Story vairagi
14 y
3,095
This is a reply to # 1,629,274Powerfull memory S.
Out of body experiences really reveal to us how much is unconsidered in our society and what it spends its time on. you are certainly on the road to awakening.
Are you familiar with the traditional meaning of poltergist activity. It is associated most commonly with young girls. If you havent researched it yet you might get some good information there also.
Your story is going to give one of the religious crowds much to warn you about ect, as you probably know. Research that too. How the whole enemy thing became and its place in history and reality.
Id say the power in your experience is that there is a lot to learn here and we rarely learn it in school.In fact can you imagine sharing such experiences in almost any american school setting and all the missunderstanding, fear and ignoring of the reality of your experience it would arouse.
Its telling how in many setting tho if you brought this story to show and tell, many others would chime in with their similar stories and the teachers also.
The information as to realities workings are, as we mentioned in the begining, only unavailable to those who dont want to know.
- Re: My Own Paranormal Story Sagitta
14 y
3,020
This is a reply to # 1,629,377For a long time I really did not want to know. It was easy to ignore the whole experience, because that was the first and last time that such an event occured. I was not haunted,or burdened by it or any such thing. Growing up was too interesting to dwell on it much. I no longer believe that a being called the devil has any real existance outside of human conciousness, but welcome any evidence for or against this view. I have never experienced any trouble arising from the experience. I am only seeking to understand the experience, as part of a wider quest to understand self and man's place in the Universe
- Re: Defining vairagi
14 y
3,371
This is a reply to # 1,629,625Ive taken up enough space already and this is more related to basic rambling on life but still related to the original topic
The part that fear plays in the unraveling of confusion is important to define and to understand properly when defining appropriate human characteristics, philosophies and actions.
As all mature teachers share and as Frank Herbert said so well " fear is the mind killer."
While we all have a sense of this, we also equate prudence as a most healthy fear. However irresponsible, stupid or improper fear, versus healthy prudent fear, is not a part of this note.
Rather the understanding that there are two choices we have in most all situations. Two opposed philosophical understandings. Two different positions in our mentality that we live untill we reach the level of accepting reality in the largest sense, which allows the position of unconditional love to manifest.
One choice is to have some fear or concern about certain things (again not considering unhealthy or irresponsible actions in this diatribe), and one choice is to have no fear or concern w regard to things as we find them.
One philosophy is self protecting, self oriented, one philosophy is self denying, other oriented. One practices conserving to avoid possible future situations, the other practices giving, without consideration of future situations.
As we personlly decide which is the ultimate answer to our situational questions, we may go back and forth, we make think a permutation of each, a blending of each is appropriate. Yet that misses the basic dichotomies. Thus any attempt to straddle the fence finds us really in one side whether we know or want to be using that side as representational of our life.
The meeting points of these philosophies is where our minds often struggle in quandry.
To fear or not to fear, might be seen as the question that if followed to to its end, creates the fuel that gives rise to the fire, that eventually burns all that is temporary and ultimately untrue, and reveals that which has worth and is ultimately always true.
To add here, so as to not to lengthen or tangent off on the nice thread running in "god w no religion", it should be helpful to understand how no belief system, no character growth system, is immune to being influenced by the immature, tho they may basicly be meaning to exemplify a mature, beyond fear, greater love aspect of truth.
Thus to equate the negative behavior of, as you call the Abrahamic religions, (which many of us feel are more correctly termed and understood to be Anunakian teachings and commands,) is to only mention and emphasize this tribal teachings one side of the multiple sided coin of choices, regarding their philosophy of living, that being the fear based side.
Similar to how all people and evan all political structures are basicly, more equal than not. Neutral untill the choice is made to orient with either fear or non fear based action. Self oriented vs other oriented.
As how monarchies, dictatorships, democracies or republics, are all positive manifestations of governance, if the leaders and the people have true service foremost in mind, working to ease each other's sufferings, and thus gain continually more freedom and understanding in all that they do.
But if true service is missing, bypassed or ignored in any power role and fear arises, it will redirect the positivity of any of these arrangements, and no matter the particularly seeming fairness of the political structure, the outcome of the choices made will be generally destructive.
Thus again shamanic(spiritulism), presbterian(hierarchic), methodism(systematic), awakeningism(Buddhism), universilism(eternalism, new ageism), submissionism(Islam, Enlilism, Christianity, Roman Catholisism), all have the inherant ability to reveal certain truths and all the the ability to confuse and perpetuate untruth. The predicament is decided and accentuated to the degree adherants use fear or not as the philosophical choice at any given moment.
Aiyahhhhh
I like again, Frank Herberts redoing of the classic singularist teaching when he wrote " I tell you the day is here, and you ask me for a lantern so you can see the day."
The truth is so self evident it takes perception altering hypnotic confused thinking and or supremely missdirected attention to miss and or ignore it.
We find freedom in going from elementary concepts to the more sophisticated and then still more subtle till no concepts as we know them can exist, because we have followed the path and found it everywhere.
The search start with meaning,and ends with a laugh.
(after the crying is done)
- Re: Defining vairagi
14 y
3,371
- Re: My Own Paranormal Story Sagitta
14 y
3,020
- Re: My Own Paranormal Story vairagi
14 y
3,095
- My Own Paranormal Story Sagitta
14 y
3,139
- Re: Shamanism vairagi
14 y
3,296
- Re: Shamanism Sagitta
14 y
3,039
- Re: Shamanism Sagitta
14 y
3,158
- Re: Shamanism vairagi
14 y
3,315
- Re: Shamanism its practical challeng... Sagitta
14 y
3,047
- Re: Shamanism its practical challeng... vairagi
14 y
3,203
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