Hey Hv,
I've been thinking about the way my lungs have been feeling and I think that I have an idea as to what's going on, maybe. At first I thought it was reflux, which I did/do have, but even after somewhat fixing that I have not noticed much improvement. The I thought it was an infection I needed to clear up so I started taking the respiratory infection formula you recommend, but it has not yet worked. You said it was probably because I can't get the mucous out easily like the average person. I think I agree. I then thought it was because I am having bronchial constriction, so I am on the Coleus as you recommended. However, that still hasn't resolved my issues.
Then finally it dawned on me - inflammation with possible allergies in my lungs. I has dismissed that because I figured I was nebulizing the Glutathione, which I incorrectly assumed was an anti-inflammatory, but it is actually just an anti-oxidant - these are not necessarily the same thing, right? I also am taking the turmeric and coleus. Turmeric is an anti-inflammatory, but as you have said several times, it is not well absorbed. It also is not the most powerful anti-inflammatory. I thought coleus would act as an anti-inflammatory, but I realized that you have never stated this. I think it works more as a bronchiodilator with some anti-allergy properties as well, right?
You wrote to someone the following: My favorite anti-inflammatories in order are licorice root, yucca root, turmeric and nettle leaf. These can be combined for better effects.
I just started the adrenal protocol yesterday, as we discussed in a PM. Right now my dose of the adrenal herbs is not that high because I'm building up slowly to ensure no allergic reaction occurs. Which means I'm not taking too many anti-inflammatory substances at the moment. I am taking more turmeric as of yesterday, but again it's not that well absorbed.
A lot of people with CF take that drug from the underworld, prednisone, in order to deal with inflammation. I have no desire to take it, however thinking about what you have written about licorice root and it's steroidal properties, I think it might make sense for me to take additional licorice root beyond the amount in the adrenal protocol. Do you think this makes sense? If so, how much should I take and what other herbs should I mix it with, if any? Most people with CF start the prednisone at 40 mg and then taper down. Would it be possible to safely take an equivalent dose of licorice root and other natural herbs and if so how much? You may want to PM me on this since you already know what herbs I'm taking. However I thought others might benefit from knowing how much licorice root or other anti-inflammatory herbs to take for lung inflammation.
Thanks!!
I has dismissed that because I figured I was nebulizing the Glutathione, which I incorrectly assumed was an anti-inflammatory, but it is actually just an anti-oxidant - these are not necessarily the same thing, right?
Correct.
I thought coleus would act as an anti-inflammatory, but I realized that you have never stated this. I think it works more as a bronchiodilator with some anti-allergy properties as well, right?
Correct, it increases cAMP levels, which acts as an antihistamine and antileukotriene. Forskohlin is anti-inflammatory as well, but it is not going to be as strong as the steroidal anti-inflammatories.
A lot of people with CF take that drug from the underworld, prednisone, in order to deal with inflammation. I have no desire to take it, however thinking about what you have written about licorice root and it's steroidal properties, I think it might make sense for me to take additional licorice root beyond the amount in the adrenal protocol. Do you think this makes sense?
This can help if it is an inflammatory condition. I don't believe it is totally inflammatory though. Inflammation can cause the increased mucous production, though it is not going to cause the thick stickiness. Back to the question though, people that are on Prednisone will have a different dosage since licorice root prolongs the effects of Prednisone. Therefore people on Prednisone will have to decrease their licorice or Prednisone dose.
In your case I would still combine the licorice root with the yucca root in particular. and since you will be increasing your licorice root intake then you also need to increase your potassium intake to counter the side effects of high dose, long term use of licorice root. A simple formula would be 5 ounces of Chinese licorice root (G. uralensis), with 3 ounces of yucca root (not the stem) and 2 ounces of nettle leaf. Recommended dose is 1 teaspoon 3 to 4 times daily on an empty stomach at least 20 minutes before meals.
Would it be possible to safely take an equivalent dose of licorice root and other natural herbs and if so how much?
It is going to be hard to match 40mg of Prednisone, which is a very hefty dose. But the synergy of the herbs will give a very good anti-inflammatory effect at the recommended dose above.
Although you still need to thin out the mucous. Fenugreek is good for this, and there is Chinese herb that is supposed to be excellent. I don't recall the name though. I bought some years ago for an old girlfriend with CF. I will have to see if I can find the name again. Some cayenne pepper can also help since it stimulates the release of fluid in to the lungs.
Thanks, Hv! This info is awesome!! A few more followup questions below in blue.
I thought coleus would act as an anti-inflammatory, but I realized that you have never stated this. I think it works more as a bronchiodilator with some anti-allergy properties as well, right?
Correct, it increases cAMP levels, which acts as an antihistamine and antileukotriene. Forskohlin is anti-inflammatory as well, but it is not going to be as strong as the steroidal anti-inflammatories.
Let me ask you this. Do you know if Coleus does anything similar to the drug Cromolyn Sodium (a.k.a. Intal) - http://www.rxlist.com/intal-nebulizer-solution-drug.htm ? Page 6 - "In vitro and in vivo animal studies have shown that cromolyn sodium inhibits sensitized mast cell degranulation which occurs after exposure to specific antigens. Cromolyn sodium acts by inhibiting the release of mediators from mast cells. Studies show that cromolyn sodium indirectly blocks calcium ions from entering the mast cell, thereby preventing mediator release." I'll be honest, I don't know what a mast cell is. I am curious because several CF patients have posted on CF forums that this medicine helped them with inflammation and allergies in the lungs, whatever they mean by that exactly. I am wondering which natural supplement(s) would do the same thing?
In your case I would still combine the licorice root with the yucca root in particular. and since you will be increasing your licorice root intake then you also need to increase your potassium intake to counter the side effects of high dose, long term use of licorice root. A simple formula would be 5 ounces of Chinese licorice root (G. uralensis), with 3 ounces of yucca root (not the stem) and 2 ounces of nettle leaf. Recommended dose is 1 teaspoon 3 to 4 times daily on an empty stomach at least 20 minutes before meals.
And this formula would ensure that I get enough potassium to counter any side effects, or do I need to take some Potassium Citrate in addition? Also, by taking this much of the licorice and yucca for anti-inflammatory purposes, will I be delaying/hindering the recovery of my adrenals, helping in their recovery, or neither?
Although you still need to thin out the mucous. Fenugreek is good for this, and there is Chinese herb that is supposed to be excellent. I don't recall the name though. I bought some years ago for an old girlfriend with CF. I will have to see if I can find the name again. Some cayenne pepper can also help since it stimulates the release of fluid in to the lungs.
You are talking here about reducing the thick stickiness, right? Won't a mucolytic like NAC also help? I just started taking 600 mg 4 x/day. Is that a good dose? The standard pharmaceutical treatment is Pulmozyme (aka dNASE, a.k.a. Dornase Alpha). Will the NAC and the herbs above achieve a similar effect?
I'm also going to send you a PM in a minute with a couple additional questions.
Sorry for so many questions. I really, really do appreciate it!
Let me ask you this. Do you know if Coleus does anything similar to the drug Cromolyn Sodium (a.k.a. Intal) - http://www.rxlist.com/intal-nebulizer-solution-drug.htm ?
I did some research in to Cromolyn in regards to CF. First I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromoglicate
"Cromolyn works because it prevents the release of mediators that would normally attract inflammatory cells and because it stabilizes the inflammatory cells."[4] The underlying mechanism of action is not fully understood; for while cromoglicate stabilizes mast cells, this mechanism is probably not why it works in asthma.[5] Pharmaceutical companies have produced 20 related compounds that are equally or more potent at stabilising mast cells and none of them have shown any anti-asthmatic effect.[5] It is more likely that these work by inhibiting the response of sensory C fibres to the irritant capsaicin, inhibiting local axon reflexes involved in asthma, and may inhibit the release of preformed T cell cytokines and mediators involved in asthma. (see review by Garland, 1991)
It is known to somewhat inhibit chloride channels (37% +/- 7%) [6] and thus may inhibit the:
Note: Another chemical (NPPB: 5-nitro-2(3-phenyl) propylamino-benzoic acid) was shown, in the same study, to be a more effective chloride channel blocker.
Finally it may act by inhibiting calcium influx.
In short they are not sure of the mechanism of action. But from some of the other information I found the primary effect seems to be due to its inhibition of inflammatory leukotrienes released by the mast cells. Forskohlin is both a histamine and leukotriene inhibitor.
But I looked at some other studies that found Cromolyn to have little to no activity against bronchial hyperactivity in CF patients. Albuterol was found to have a much better effect than Chromolyn.
They also state that it is the inflammation that appears to be the primary culprit in causing the damage in .
And this formula would ensure that I get enough potassium to counter any side effects, or do I need to take some Potassium Citrate in addition?
You should get plenty of potassium from the nettle leaf. But it would not hurt to increase or intake of potassium a little bit. You can do this through a supplement or by increasing your intake through foods. Good sources include parsley, watermelon, kiwis, watercress, orange juice and ripe bananas.
Also, by taking this much of the licorice and yucca for anti-inflammatory purposes, will I be delaying/hindering the recovery of my adrenals, helping in their recovery, or neither?
Both actually help to build up the adrenals.
You are talking here about reducing the thick stickiness, right?
Yes, you need to thin out the mucous to help clear the mucous out of the lungs, which otherwise helps to harbor infections.
Won't a mucolytic like NAC also help? I just started taking 600 mg 4 x/day. Is that a good dose? The standard pharmaceutical treatment is Pulmozyme (aka dNASE, a.k.a. Dornase Alpha). Will the NAC and the herbs above achieve a similar effect?
NAC does help thin out the mucous by breaking the disulfide bonds in the mucous. NAC has been found to work better when taken orally as opposed to nebulizing.
Fenugreek also helps to thin out mucous and has other benefits such as lowering blood sugar and providing sterols for the adrenals.
I will see if I can find that other herb as well that is used to thin out mucous.
Been following this (fantastic) thread for a couple of days. Picked up more nettle leaf at HFS today, along with fenugreek (seeds), licorice root (whole, as in "sticks") - but uncertain as to its specificity, i.e., G. uralensis or otherwise). Store did not carry any yucca root (is it a powder), only a tincture, which I declined - salesclerk suggested I just buy a yucca root. So I did.
Questions/concerns:
1) Are the fenugreek seeds, the licorice root (whole) what I want?
They will be harder to use, but they will work.
If it's not the Chinese herb, can any degree of benefit be had?
Yes, even the American licorice root has adaptogenic and anti-inflammatory properties.
2) I'd like to make a tea, and aside from the nettle I'm lost in the dark.
For the licorice root you need to break up the licorice root some to increase the surface area. Do you have a way to grind or cut up the licorice root? If worse comes to worse you can smash it with a clean hammer. Once you break it up you would us 1 teaspoon per cup of water. Bring the water to a boil then add the root and boil covered for 15 minutes, then turn off the heat and allow it to steep until cool enough to drink. Strain and drink.
3) What-abouts-eye just cook the yucca and try to eat it?
You can do that, but if boiled you will lose a lot of the steroidal saponins in the water. You can bake it, but I have never done this so I don't know the cooking time or temp. The other option is to grate or grind it to make the tea. This root can be steeped in hot water, it does not require boiling like licorice root. Again much easier to start with powders.
4) Clerk told me many people chew the fenugreek. Whatchya' thinx?
I have never tried to chew the whole seeds, so I don't know if they are soft or hard. As long as they are soft enough to chew the this is fine. If not you can grind them with a coffee grinder.
I was too eager to wait. Heading home next week and once settled will order bulk herbs online. Is there a good one stop shop on the web? I've found some items on certain sites, and others on other sites. Would be great to get everything I want with one click.
I buy from Starwest Botanicals, which is the only wholesaler I buy from that sells retail as well. San Francisco Herb has also been mentioned as well as Mountain Rose Herbs.
4) Clerk told me many people chew the fenugreek. Whatchya' thinx?
I have never tried to chew the whole seeds, so I don't know if they are soft or hard. As long as they are soft enough to chew the this is fine. If not you can grind them with a coffee grinder.
Don't even try to chew these seeds. It's like trying to chew gravel. I had to grind mine in my coffee grinder. That works well.