Not gallstones? 
UserX
17 y
8,653
http://askdrblonz.com/q&a/col641.html
What do you guys say to this?
I haven't done one yet, say I'm not for or against it. Just researching as much as I can before I try.- Re: Not gallstones? Hveragerthi
17 y
7,981
This is a reply to # 1,297,698You may want to read this:
http://www.vegsource.com/klaper/qa02.htm
Also keep in mind that olive oil contains a fair amount of sterols. Sterols bind very tightly to cholesterol molecules forming insoluble complexes, which likely play a major role in the formation of these "gallstones". - Re: Not gallstones? DoctorD
17 y
9,117
This is a reply to # 1,297,698PuppetMaster, he is correct. Both myself and my wife have Gallstones and I have been looking for alternatives to surgery- which includes the various 'flush' methods offered available. The results are not gallstones, and are actually results of the 'remedy' itself.
People, perhaps in wanting to believe, still provide arguments for the flush even though it is physically impossible to obtain the results claimed. As an example, lets take one common 'flush solution' and break it down- let's use the Apple Juice, Olive Oil, & Epsom Salt routine.
Before I go into those three components lets review the basic idea of what happens when we have gallstone attacks. The bile is made in the liver by liver cells and is sent through tiny ducts or canals to the duodenum (small intestine) and to the gallbladder. The gallbladder stores the bile to have it available in larger quantities for secretion when a meal is eaten. The ingestion of food and especially fats cause the release of a hormone, cholecystokinin, (CCK) which in turn signals the relaxation of the valve at the end of the common bile duct via neuro receptors(the sphincter of oddi) which lets the bile enter the small intestine. It also signals the contraction of the gallbladder which squirts the concentrated liquid bile into the small intestine where it helps with the emulsification or breakdown of fats in the meal. If Gallstones are present they can block the exit of the gallbladder, and between the inflammation and increased pressure can be extremely painful when signalled.
As for the flush components, I've heard various explanations that are not true and can be disproved. Some claim that the mixture helps to soften the stones, 'grease' the passing stones, release/loosen the ducts, and so forth. First off, all those components in that 'potion' go into the stomach, none of it reaches the liver or gallbladder and therefore cannot do any of the above. Additionally, there is no electro-signal from the stomach nor any other to the receptors in the liver or gallbladder that can tell them to do that. There is also no way the liver and gallbladder could do that if it wanted- they don't have the capability- it's like asking your dishwasher to answer your email. And the size of those stones are just icing in the cake, it would be physically impossible to pass something as large as being reported through those little ducts (which is why surgery is so often required).
Apple Juice and Epsom are certainly not going to trigger the cholecystokinin that signals the gallbladder, but there is a chance the olive oil could. It's not likely, but also not impossible that some 'sludge' or miniscule stone might randomly make it out the duct at this same time... but the chances are no greater than any other time you eat fats. In fact, if triggered by the olive oil you could be starting another attack if you have previously experiencing gallstone attacks. Nothing in these 'flush' solutions are going to make any of your Gallstones go away any faster than anything else you put in your stomach.
People testify how they feel better afterwards and no more bloating, more energy, etc. I believe this, as your basically giving yourself an enema, and can alleviate a lot of issues that enimas normally due. Flushing of the upper and lower intestines removes bacteria, parasites, and other items that cause bloating, pain and discomfort, energy loss and more.
So all in all I was hoping and wanted to believe, but once you really break it down it really isn't doing anything at all for your gallstones, but that's not to say it isn't helping others via the enema elements. I hope this helps someone.
More
- Re: Not gallstones? birdog
16 y
7,925
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,297,921Good info.
Well, I think the key here may be the delayed ingestion of a lot of oil, stimulating a strong contraction and bile release by the gallbladder. It might seem possible that this could help flush out some stones in the gallbladder, as well as suck some out of the bile ducts. That normally wouldn't with much lighter gallbladder contractions? - Re: Not gallstones? SAHLOMON
16 y
7,696
This is a reply to # 1,297,921so please tell me, where people are getting these stones that are said to come out after 3 - 17 times of flushing.
- Re: Not gallstones? birdog
16 y
7,925
- Re: Not gallstones? #94312
17 y
7,957
This is a reply to # 1,297,698In great pain and misery facing gallbladder surgery one single flush changed my life! You can take all your little stories and chalk them down to cheap talk! Action speaks louder then any pompuous speculation ! There is no expertise like experience!
- Re: Not gallstones? hanna
17 y
8,457
R
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,297,933Read all liver forums Liver Flush evidence, Liverflush support especially the FAQ and this one so you get all sides and make up your own mind.
Flushing has changed my life, too bad I did not find out till I was 67, even my allergies which I had since I was in my teens cleared up.- Re: Not gallstones? DoctorD
17 y
7,966
This is a reply to # 1,298,063Wierd, people say 'liver flush' changed their life but won't say it removed their Gallstones from their gallbladder. Read through the posts in this forum and use your best judgement. I've read all the material you mentioned and I also know the physiology and anatomy of the organs and how they work. It is not possible for a flush to what is being claimed nor is there any evidence to support it. Read my previous post in this thread and debate the facts then if you believe otherwise.
If it removed your Gallstones from your gallbladder prove it and educate us how that actually happened by walking us through the process, just like I did showing how it is impossible. Otherwise quit wasting peoples time with the general drivel and provide supporting evidence, otherwise were bound to belive people that sell the flush remedies continue to post at these websites just to try and keep their sales up.
- Flush can remove some gallstones fro... White Shark
17 y
28,372
BSA Educational
This is a reply to # 1,298,092
DoctorD claims:
"It is not possible for a flush to [do] what is being claimed nor is there any evidence to support it."
I claim this:
"Flush can remove some gallstones from some gallbladders, not all gallstones from all gallbladders"
In other words, it may look like DoctorD does not agree with me.
But, I can bet that DoctorD agrees with me.
If DoctorD is a real doctor, he will agree with me, cause I base this message entirely on medical science.
Is there really any solid evidence that Gallstones can exit gallbladder?
If there was any solid evidence that Gallstones can exit gallbladder, why would any doctor claim that gallstones CAN NOT exit gallbladder?
Fact: Some gallstones (smaller gallstones) can exit gallbladder.
Fiction: All gallstones can exit gallbladder. Anyone believing that every stone can exit gallbladder is ignorant/uninformed or irrational. Rare stones can be even larger then 2 inch ( 5cm ) in smallest diameter.
Fiction: Gallstones can not exit gallbladder. Anyone believing that no stone can exit gallbladder is ignorant/uninformed or irrational. Stones can be smaller then 2 mm in diameter, and could easily travel through the bile ducts without any chance of causing obstruction.
Majority of gallstones starts their "life" as a microscopic crystal of cholesterol. Very few gallstones ever get a chance to grow larger then 2mm. Most are expelled while small as sand.
cholesterol = chole + sterol
The name originates from the Greek chole- (bile) and stereos (solid)cholesterol = Greek for solid bile
How do we know that some gallstones can exit gallbladder?
It is a well documented medical phenomenon.
Obstruction of the common bile duct is often caused by gallstones that were expelled from the gallbladder:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&...
In patients with chronic Pancreatitis, common bile duct obstruction is reported in 3.2-45.6% of patients; however, only 5-10% of all patients with chronic Pancreatitis require operative decompression of the bile duct.http://www.virtualgastrocentre.com/diseases.asp?did=191
Passage of gallstones into the common bile duct occurs in approximately 10-15% of patients with Gallstones. The incidence is thus related to the presence of gallstones, which are very common (10-20% of population).Common bile duct stone References
[1] Braunwald, Fauci, Kasper, Hauser, Longo, Jameson. Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. 15th Edition. McGraw-Hill. 2001.
[2] Cotran, Kumar, Collins 6th edition. Robbins Pathologic Basis of Disease. WB Saunders Company. 1999.
[3] Fletcher, D. Gallstones, In: Tjandra, JJ, Clunie GJ, Thomas, RJS (eds); Textbook of Surgery, 2nd Ed, Blackwell Science, Asia. 2001.
[4] Haslet C, Chiliers ER, Boon NA, Colledge NR. Principles and Practice of Medicine. Churchill Livingstone 2002.
[5] Hurst JW (Editor-in-chief). Medicine for the practicing physician. 4th edition Appleton and Lange 1996.
[6] Kumar P, Clark M. CLINICAL MEDICINE. WB Saunders 2002.
[7] Longmore M, Wilkinson I, Torok E. OXFORD HANDBOOK OF CLINICAL MEDICINE. Oxford Universtiy Press. 2001
[8] McLatchie G and LEaper DJ (editors). Oxford Handbook of Clinical Surgery 2nd Edition. Oxford University Press 2002.
[9] MEDLINE Plus
[10] Raftery AT Churchill's pocketbook of Surgery. Churchill Livingsone 2001.http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1119388
Jaundice occurs in patients with gall stones when a stone migrates from the gall bladder into the common bile duct...Acute pancreatitis
Acute pancreatitis develops in 5% of all patients with gall stones and is more common in patients with multiple small stones, a wide cystic duct, and a common channel between the common bile duct and pancreatic duct. Small stones passing down the common bile duct and through the papilla may temporarily obstruct the pancreatic duct or allow reflux of duodenal fluid or bile into the pancreatic duct resulting in acute pancreatitis.
Let us do some math here.
20% of people may develop gallstones during their life
15% of people with gallstones may experience obstruction of the common bile duct
How many people may experience obstruction of the common bile duct?
Answer: 3% of total population where 20% have gallstones.
What about USA?
Population of USA: 300 million.
How many people may experience obstruction of the common bile duct during their life?
3% = 9 million people in USA will experience obstruction of the common bile duct with gallstone(s), gallstone(s) that most likely was formed inside gallbladder, and then was expelled, only to be stuck into the common bile duct.Question: Do all gallstones expelled from gallbladder end-up blocking common bile duct?
Answer: No, only gallstones that have specific size and/or shape.
By it's size and shape, the stone must be small enough or slim enough to pass through the cystic duct and exit gallbladder, but it should be large enough to stuck at the sphincter of oddi, and to block the flow of liquid bile and pancreatic juices into duodenum.
How many gallstones have that specific size and/or shape that would allow it to exit gallbladder, but would not allow it to pass through common bile duct or through the "sphincter of oddi"?
Nobody knows the answer to this question, of course.
But, we could estimate that less then 10% of all stones would qualify. That would be of course just an estimation.
We could estimate that 90% of gallstones (or gallbladder sand and sludge ) that exits gallbladder would not stuck in the common bile duct, and will never be registered. It would become feces.
What does that mean?
It could mean that majority of people with gallstones may have expelled some of their stones (or sand) at one time or another, without ever knowing it happened. Stones pass from bile ducts into intestines ... no pain ... no obstruction ... no symptoms ... no awareness .... nobody knows it happened. But it could be happening every day. That is what nature (evolution) intended for gallstones.
Remember that each stone starts as a microscopic crystal. Who could count the number of microscopic crystals that are existing gallbladder every day?
Why don't all stones pass?
Why don't gallbaldder get those crystals out before they become large enough?
There could be many reasons, like: the lack of phisical activity, poor diet, stress, dehydration, being owerweight, not drinking enough water, infection, illness, .... hundreds of oissible reasons.
What about USA?
Population of USA: 300 million.
Number of people who will develop gallstones: 20% = 60 million.
If 90% of them expel some smaller gallstones at one time or another during their life, then we have 54 million people who are going to pass or have already passed gallstones, and are not aware of it!!!
Estimation:
54 million of people in USA may expel some smaller gallstones from their gallbladder. 9 million people in USA will experience obstruction of the common bile duct, obstruction caused by a gallstone small enough to exit cystic duct, but too large to exit sphinscter of oddi..The sphincter of oddi is situated in the upper intestine, or duodenum, at the site where the common bile duct enters intestine. Normally, this sphincter functions as a one-way valve to allow bile and pancreatic secretions to enter the bowel, while preventing the contents of the bowel from backing up into these ducts.
White Shark
- Re: Flush can remove some gallstones... Abba V
17 y
8,130
This is a reply to # 1,298,598Whiteshark, from reading DoctorD's previous posts it sounds like he/she agrees, and that response you quoted was based off his initial post which does state small enough stones can exit the gallbladder... but stones that are too big for the duct, and the 'soap stones' shown in so many pictures, did not pass through the liver or gallbladder.
- Re: Flush can remove some gallstones... DoctorD
17 y
7,998
This is a reply to # 1,298,598Whiteshark, you are absolutely correct- I do agree with you. That post was in direct relation to my comments made in my original post. That was completely my mistake, as I posted out of context of that message. If you read that post individually and out of context of the original post, it is easy to misinterpret.
- Re: Flush can remove some gallstones... Echoe
16 y
8,480
This is a reply to # 1,298,598hmmm. There's a simplistic error happening here. A flush per se, wouldn't remove small Gallstones from the gallbladder. The necessitation of bile in the digestive system, and the gall bladder squeezing that bile (and possible small stones out) would remove small gallstones.
I'm thinking flush is a really bad term here. Because you can't "bathe" the gallbladder or the liver in any substance that you feed the body. Nor can you run a substance through them (thank GOD, becuase the liver regulates what gets into our blood system and if it were that easy, any germ or virus would have instant access to our whole body in seconds) the lemon juice and olive oil enable bile to liquefy more easily, but they don't enter the liver or the gall bladder at all. It's the flow of BILE that enables Gallstones (only small ones) to leave the gallbladder. It is bile that flows from the liver and whatever the bile digests along the way, but it is not possible for the lemon juice or olive oil to get into the ducts and "clean them out." It IS however necessary to trigger the proper brain responses by feeding appropriate foods (the tongue discerns sweet, which triggers the brain to produce insulin, the tongue discerns bitters which triggers the brain to make the bile flow, etc.) to the body and restoring the proper functions.
I have had my gall bladder removed, with no reduction in the gall bladder attacks. The muscular contractions were felt in the area of my sternum, which threw off many doctors, so that ocntraction felt is muscular, not hepatic, and can indicate large gall stones for those who have their gall bladder.
I'm not against a liver cleanse at all. I'm just proposing that it is inaccurately described, and has inaccurately supposed functions. I did a liver cleanse. I would suggest that for those with long-term chronic debilitative illness (such as lupus, or fibro) NOT do the epson salt portion of the cleanse, as these people are already depleted of minerals and vitamins but that they DO the lemon and olive oil and one day meat fast portion.
Lemon and olive oil are indeed vital for bile flow, and for binding with free-radicals or toxins saving the liver some extra work. Olive oil is a nutritive fat that the body works with readily as opposed to vegetable oils which are harmful to the human body. Both help the liver function better. The liver is the main area that uploads vitamins and minerals to the rest of the body, if that is impaired, then we see many breakdowns in the body.
Zinc is also imperative to the liver and pancreas. Vitamin C must be supplied DAILY in order to help remove toxins and ammonia from the body (ammonia is a by-product of proteins being broken down.) and everything is very interconnected.
Somewhere, under "why are there no studies" I believe on page nine, I posted studies showing in fact that lemons and olive oil are beneficial to the liver. So no harm in the "cleanse" but let's not perpetuate non-factual beliefs.
It's not a "flush" unless it's an intestinal one, nor are the stones olive oil (sorry, someone said something and I can't find that either.) as that was assumed, but the stones ARE made up of fats, which I also provided studies showing that olive oil helped reduce LONG chain fats in the liver (that's the vegetable oils which are harmful and reduce the livers capacity to do its other functions.)
I do hope that everyone takes time to learn more about their body and why what we feed it is so VERY important, and why the western diet is literally killing Americans and other societies that are turning to the same diets. - Re: Flush can remove some gallstones... Coveralls
11 y
4,297
- Re: Flush can remove some gallstones... Abba V
17 y
8,130
- Re: Not gallstones? dicktr
15 y
7,035
This is a reply to # 1,298,092I can believe that "DoctorD" is a real Doctor, as my ex-Gastro-Intestinal Consultant has similar attitudes and "beliefs"... I ended up asking him if I was going to let him waste any more of my time... but he did tell me that Gallstones up to about 4mm can pass out of the gall bladder into the intestine without the risk of getting stuck in the ducts, causing obstructive jaundice etc.
Please quit wasting people's time with the general drivel.
We are bound to believe people that advocate gallbladder flush remedies that use only ingredients that can be bought from any supermarket, and who do not benefit from helping us... we would regard claims by people who sell remedies with more caution.
- Flush can remove some gallstones fro... White Shark
17 y
28,372
BSA Educational
- Re: Not gallstones? Hveragerthi
17 y
8,035
This is a reply to # 1,298,063Allergies have nothing to do with the gallbladder. They occur from adrenal dysfunction.
- Re: Not gallstones? #94312
17 y
7,852
This is a reply to # 1,298,579Wrong anyone with any holistic knowledge knows that a congested liver is responsible for not only allergies but adrenal malfunction! And all can benefit with a cleansed liver!
Either you are talking straight out of some medical establishment propaganda journal or just don't know what you are talking about! Or you are selling something!
http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0178.htm
http://www.sensiblehealth.com/Journey-08.xhtml
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Chinese-Medicine-Views-the-Liver-and-Allergies&...
- Re: Not gallstones? Hveragerthi
17 y
7,822
This is a reply to # 1,298,610The sites you linked are full of BS!!!
In your first link they claim bile moisturizes the mucous membranes. Are you aware of how many different mucous membranes there are in the body? Are you aware that bile is caustic and burns tissues in higher concentrations? This is why people who have had their gallbladders removed get chronic diarrhea. The bile dumping in to the intestines chemically burns the intestinal wall causing a flood of fluid in to the intestines and peristalsis. This burning also greatly increases the risk of cancer. So how do you think the bile gets to the nasal cavity to moisturize the mucous membranes there? How about the vagina and its mucous membranes?
In your second link they claim autoimmune disorders, such as arthritis, are caused from an overactive immune system. First of all there are about 120 forms of arthritis. Very few have anything to do with autoimmunity. Secondly, autoimmunity results from an under active immune system, not an overactive immune system. This is why immune suppressants, like stress and stimulants, make autoimmune conditions worse. They weaken the immune system through additional adrenal suppression leading to the overproduction of low affinity antibodies. The rest of the immune system does their jobs just as they are designed to do. The cytokines are not overactive. The flora are not overactive. The white blood cells are not overactive. The peroxides are not overactive....... The fact is NOTHING is overactive, just an under active immunity from low adrenal function. And allergies result from a lack of epinephrine and corticosteroids, which prevents the proper countering of allergic responses when exposed to allergens. Do a little real research and you will find this is true.
And in your third link they claim that an improperly functioning gallbladder results in allergies. Where do they get this garbage?!!! The gallbladder has NOTHING to do with allergies. Again it is adrenal dysfunction. And again, do the research and you will find this is true.
- Re: Not gallstones? Hveragerthi
17 y
7,822
- Re: Not gallstones? UserX
17 y
7,714
- Re: Not gallstones? #94312
17 y
7,852
- Re: Not gallstones? DoctorD
17 y
7,966
- Re: Not gallstones? DoctorD
17 y
8,090
This is a reply to # 1,297,933Changed your life... hopefully for the better? Were you diagnosed with Gallstones and are you saying the flush removed them... or are you saying something else occured during that time that changed your life?
It is your comments and 'little stories' that are classified as cheap talk, as you provide no evidence or or support claiming the Gallstones were removed from the bladder. The green floating stones being discussed and pictured have been proven to be from the remedy itself via chemical breakdown from labs, and from people who've tried it... just browse these boards and you will find people who DID try it and when they broke are the fake stones they found pieces of grapefruit pulp!
Also, you completely disregard the facts and claim it is cheap talk and pompous speculation?! You just described your post!
If you had Gallstones large enough to require surgery you cannot claim the flush removed them from your gallbladder. It may have helped you feel better in some other way, but those gallstones are still in there if they ever were.
Makes me wonder, do you truly believe it helped and are completely ignoring the facts... or do you have one of these websites that seel these 'flush' remedies. If you care, try and prove the facts wrong.- Re: Not gallstones? #94312
17 y
7,864
This is a reply to # 1,298,086Just what are your facts Doctor??? Just a bunch of allopathic propaganda! Read the archives and testimony learn something instead of just assuming! For someone who calls himself a doctor you sure are uninformed about the human body!
Expand 26 messages, 21 to 46 of 46 UserX
17 y
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- Re: Not gallstones? #94312
17 y
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- Re: Not gallstones? hanna
17 y
8,457
R
- Re: Not gallstones? Hveragerthi
17 y
7,981
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