Which one's the Christian? 
#21676
17 y
2,201
Which one's the Christian?
Bob calls himself a Christian and reads the bible and goes to church. Bob constantly sins and does not act at all like Jesus acted or preached.
Joe does not call himself a Christian, never read the bible or went to church. Joe leads a very upstanding life and just happens to practice the same lifestyle that Jesus preached, by coincidence. He very rarely commits acts that would be considered sins by Christians.
Which one's the Christian?
Bob? Joe? Both? Neither?- Re: Which one's the Christian? stoneface
17 y
1,944
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,009,668The way you put the question, appears that Joe is true christian out of those two.
The bigger question is: Who is Jesus. Whole cristianity is based on that.
But is it correct?
What about non-christians ?
Are we saying, that they are all wrong? - Re: Which one's the Christian? been there done that
17 y
2,027
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,009,668
Joe definitely is GODLY. Joe hasn't yet accepted God's Son to purify his soul, but Joe definitely behaves and lives as a Christian should because it is his NATURE (God is no respecter of persons/personalities) to be GODLY (by coincidence). The sermon that Jesus gave (Sermon On The Mount), taught that we should have respect for humanity and those that suffer. We should admire God's ways of good and right and true (and we should adopt His ways). We should be holdouts for justice (not "PUNISHING" justice, but right is right and wrong is wrong and never the twain shall meet). Godly people have an attraction to TRUTH (OBJECTIVE truth, not "subjective" truth) and let conscience determine their behavior. It sounds like Joe would be the kind of person who does all these things and will someday realize that the creator sent His Son to purify our souls so that we would be eligible to return to Him in heaven (Hebrews 9:14, Jesus purifies our souls AND God's spirit purifies our conscience).
Joe probably makes the DISTINCTION between right and wrong so that the change from right to wrong is clear and abrupt (with no middle ground, James 1:17, "...no shadow or variation..." and Hebrews 5:14) because there is a clear division between the two (as a sword would divide, the sword of the spirit, Ephesians 6:17).
If Joe read the WRITTEN word of God/"word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13) from 2000 years ago, he would discover that the word that we are to LIVE BY is what the spirit of God SPEAKS to each of us (John 10:27, "My sheep HEAR my VOICE").
Just like everybody on earth, Joe SHOULD fear not having his soul purified, but once he comes to know God in a more personal way, there should be no more fear and his love should be perfected (1 John 4:18).
If Joe is taught as many Christians are taught (the introductory/"ELEMENTARY doctrine", Heberews 6:1), he won't discover the "depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10) and will believe that there are TYPES of love (instead of types of love RELATIONSHIPS) and will also be taught to demean SELF (Colossians 2:18) even though "I am who I am" (Exodus 3:14) wants us to know AND BE "self". Joe will be taught to separate the three manifestations of God's grace to humanity even though "God is ONE", Galatians 3:20).
Tell Joe about these verses and that many principles of God are taught wrong because Christianity is taught in a human/worldly way (and always has been) instead of a Godly way.
Many people "sin" against dress codes, codes of etiquette, codes of table manners, etc., but if Joe doesn't "sin against heaven" like the prodigal son (who was forgiven by a loving father) who learned to regard his father's "good advice" instead of needing to be commanded to be good, then the "rivers of living water" (John 7:38, tears of sorrow) probably already tend to flow from his heart and he will never be satisfied to simply "walk by faith", but "walk by the spirit"/love (Galatians 5:16 and 25). The spirit is "the GREATEST of these (1 Corinthians 13:13).
All verses are from the RSV.
http://cf.blb.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=all+flesh&Version=KJ...
God bless Joe.
- Re: Which one's the Christian? beenthere30
17 y
1,908
This is a reply to # 1,009,668Only God sees the heart and we are instructed not to judge another, but to love. Judging interferes with how we react to and treat others.
- Re: Which one's the Christian? been there done that
17 y
1,963
This is a reply to # 1,009,893The original poster asked a question, beenthere30. Why are you so quick to criticize (or were you saying that the the initial poster should not ask the question?) me?.
Always feel free to be more specific instead of make safe, blank, and mysterious statements (or would that be too revealing?).
What have you to add to the conversation, beenthere30?
Let's face it, in life, many things have to be judged (decisions using "better judgement",...called DISCERNMENT). Don't ignore common sense. The Lord is not a book, He is GOD.
The Lord says that if we must judge, JUDGE RIGHTLY, not unjustly or as busybodies in other people's business without invitation (21676 asked a question, that is common in forums, catch on).
Why is it that you are defensive about Christian beliefs?...do they bother your conscience? or do they offend your own because they make sense?
Either which way, do you accuse me of JUDGING someone as though they should be given a penalty (that's the BAD part of judging, many people do that, that's why you think of judging as BAD...REALITY CHECK) and what they deserve?
- Re: Which one's the Christian? beenthere30
17 y
1,893
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,009,943I was responding to the question, Which one is the Christian? I wasn't criticizing anyone, only expressing my person feelings. I don't have the ability to see into someone's heart and therefore choose not to judge by outward appearances. I have done that in the past and most always find out that my judgements were wrong. Anyone who wants to, has the right to post a question and/or a comment. You have every right to express your feelings, which you did. I'm sorry you misunderstood me.
- Re: Which one's the Christian? beenthere30
17 y
1,893
- Re: Which one's the Christian? been there done that
17 y
1,963
- Re: Which one's the Christian? WhistlingBooger
17 y
1,953
This is a reply to # 1,009,668I think your question should have been phrased a little different. More like, which one is closer to God. Joe doesn't proclaim to be Christian, even though he is closer to God, so I'd have to answer neither. But if you ask which one is closer to God, Joe is definately. Even though he isn't really trying and might be atheist. He's still closer. It's not what you say or do that matters. It's the reason behind the actions that matters.
- Re: Which one's the Christian? #21676
17 y
2,254
This is a reply to # 1,011,944"It's not what you say or do that matters. It's the reason behind the actions that matters."
interesting..... good point
Would you say that the closest word that describes this is "intent"?- Re: Which one's the Christian? WhistlingBooger
17 y
1,914
This is a reply to # 1,011,968Exactly. Here's a question for you. ;-) Lets say you gave money to your son to put a down payment on a house, and he drank the money away, and killed someone while driving. Would God hold you liable for turning your son into a drunk, and that person's death, or would he know your intention of only wanting to help your son? Would God reward your action like giving a blanket to a homeless person, even though your son killed someone and wound up in jail from what you did?
- Re: Which one's the Christian? Healme
17 y
2,055
This is a reply to # 1,012,628Wow what a mess! I personally don't think Joe is just because he is a do gooder! The NT says our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to Jesus righteousness so Joe is out. The other so called christian could just have a weakness that needs to be overcome. Just because someone isn't perfect doesn't mean they don't love God. I agree with the person who said God knows the heart because with the information given this would be the first step. Was Bob sinning from a weakness he struggled with or did he sin and didn't care one bit. Its the attitude of the heart to me. Some may disagree and thats fine but being Good doesn't mean being saved. However I do not condone people who say I am saved and never give God the time of day or care if they dishonor him. To say Joe is Godly without knowing God is weird to me. I wouldn't say that just because someone was good morally. That is great but that doesn't mean they are saved but could mean they will be.
- Re: Which one's the Christian? beenthere30
17 y
1,918
This is a reply to # 1,013,629WOW! What a refreshing post. People continue to "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", looking on the outward, deciding what they "think" is right, and listening to other voices, instead of letting the Spirit lead them. Both men in the above question are ones "for whom Christ died" and we have no right to pass judgment or condemnation. Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn, but to seek and to save those that are lost. We should be praying that "thy will be done" and that not one sheep is lost! We should be expressing God's love to His creation, so that He can be glorified in all things.
- To Healme and beenthere WhistlingBooger
17 y
1,889
This is a reply to # 1,013,748Yeah I agree on the refreshing post comment. I wish more would jump into the water and comment. I don't understand why most people just sit on the side lines and watch. I love exchanging view points even if they aren't the same.
You made some very good points in what you said.
My wife's brother is like the guy who goes to church all the time and is a decon, but will go out of town and wind up in strip bars without his wife knowing. It reminds me of the two praying, and one telling God he is a good Christian and the other saying he's sorry for being such a bad person, and the Bible said the second person was the better Christian. I believe that too.
You're right I judged the two people in the example. In real life I give both of them the benefit of doubt, and realize they both could become greater Christians than any of us. (Which Healme implied) That was a hard lesson to learn from my wifes brother, who's done even nastier things than I want to mention. But God can do anything.
I'm wondering what you think the tree of knowledge is? I look at knowledge kind of like facts and figures, and wisdom is what you do with that knowledge. Wisdom is putting that knowledge to its best possible use. That's where most fall short I think, including myself. We confuse knowledge for wisdom.
Also what did we have before eating from the tree of knowledge? Wisdom? It seems eating from the tree of knowledge was supposed to be a fall for the human race right? If it was a fall then we were higher before? But if we had wisdom before, we wouldn't have ate from the tree of knowledge would we. Any ideas or comments?- Re: To Healme and beenthere beenthere30
17 y
1,835
This is a reply to # 1,014,234WB, There is much truth and food for thought in what you said. Several days ago I posted something that expresses some of what you said and questioned. If you would like to read it (it's not short), here is the link. Would be much interested in your comments. http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=987883#i
- Re: To Healme and beenthere been there done that
17 y
1,890
This is a reply to # 1,014,234One of the biggest faults of Christianity is that the common teachings don't take notice of the tree in the Garden of Eden, but it is the tree of THE knowledge OF "good and evil", not the tree of knowledge itself.
Having knowledge of "good and evil" (knowing the difference between right and wrong...CONSCIENCE, Genesis 3:22 "knowing good and evil") is what made us capable of SIN (having the ability to be wrong). Before that, we didn't have the ability to "sin" (because we simply didn't know any better). After eating of that tree, we became fallible because we were capable of "knowing better". As we grow up, our conscience CAPABILITY is honed (we learn more about what is right and wrong) and develop/strengthen our conscience more and more every day by learning from our parents.
Some children are not taught well (and cannot be held accountable for what they have not been taught) and might very often unknowingly/inadvertently cause evil, but not INTENTIONALLY (unfortunate for the victim, but who could hold that against the child, the PARENTS should have taught the child better). If a baby or child dies without ever hearing about Jesus, they are still saved...ALL flesh shall SEE salvation, but not all will keep it for the afterlife (fully accountable adults might choose to have nothing to do with God and refuse to claim Jesus as purification of their souls AND The Father's spirit as purification of their conscience, Hebrews 9:14).
http://cf.blb.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=all+flesh+shall+see+...
Many people believe there is an AGE of accountability, THERE IS NOT. There is a "state" of conscience or "mind of accountability"/KNOWLEDGE of right (good) and wrong (evil).
Adults are held responsible for their ABILITY (within reason, adult tribesmen, pygmies, etc. might never have heard of Jesus or the bible) to draw near to God (some never learn to read or don't know the language when someone tells them about God) AND whether they understand if they did WRONG/sin. Children often don't understand that they do wrong/sin (mischief, this will not be held against them).
Those who go to church (especially a deacon) have a higher ABILITY and should know better (judgement will be very strict). Those who play/pretend the "righteous game" (self-righteous for ego/status) are not fooling The Lord, He knows they don't have a pure/contrite heart (they ignore their conscience), but those of NOBLE CHARACTER (TRULY righteous by nature, they still have the responsibility to know The Lord as much as possible and in a warm PERSONAL way), even though they are Godly IN CHARACTER are responsible for acknowledging (if they do have the ability, God knows) God's Son as savior.
No one on earth is GOOD ("No one is good but God alone"), their behavior may be "good"/right). GOOD/perfect is an absolute. Just like truth (OBJECTIVE truth) is an absolute (truth is truth is truth) and does not have gradients (acceptable, better, best). Only God is perfect and good (a person may be "goodly" or behave in a good WAY/manner), but only God is GOOD.
Verses are from the RSV.
- Re: To Healme and beenthere WhistlingBooger
17 y
1,865
This is a reply to # 1,014,317Thanks BTDT! That was a "goodly" post. ;-) I'll have to contemplate the things you said.
1. So do you think Adam and Eve sinned, even though they weren't held accountable, before they ate from the tree of life? The Bible doesn't say how long they lived till they ate from the tree.
2. Also if the tree of life was what you say it was, why did they "surely" have to die just because they now knew right from wrong? I don't think it was just because they disobeyed God's will, because everyone does that.
3. Hey, another question. Were Adam and Eve born as adults or children? The Bible doesn't answer that one either. I think most people assume they were born as adults, but maybe they were born as children and God protected them till they grew up. Or were they born physically adults and mentally children? Or physically adults and mentally adults?- Re: To Healme and beenthere been there done that
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- Re: To Healme and beenthere been there done that
17 y
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- Re: To Healme and beenthere WhistlingBooger
17 y
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- Re: To Healme and beenthere beenthere30
17 y
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- To Healme and beenthere WhistlingBooger
17 y
1,889
- Re: Which one's the Christian? beenthere30
17 y
1,918
- Re: Which one's the Christian? Healme
17 y
2,055
- Re: Which one's the Christian? WhistlingBooger
17 y
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- Re: Which one's the Christian? #21676
17 y
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- Re: Which one's the Christian? stoneface
17 y
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