This forum was specially created for debate and heated discussion after the last few days of craziness over in the support forum. As we saw there was a need for it. Because, people do like to defend the faith of Christianity and other people {usually non believers} like to bring up controversial topics such as Bible reliability, Prophets etc.

I do feel sorry that things got out of hand, but when a person feels like they have been personally attacked, usually defensive attitudes arise from believers and non believers, alike. We are all human after all.....the question truly is if you feel sorry afterwards. And, yes I feel sorry, I feel sad that this has probably caused God sadness bad press.

Yes, Jesus did preach on Love, Jesus did teach against Jewish Religion, but not only that He taught against MAN's religion. And, he commanded us to take this gospel to all the nations. That would be the full gospel, and in the full gospel there is not only Love, but Truth, and sometimes the Truth hurts.

You have a choice to make. You can either believe God or the false prophets of Babylon. You can either accept the truth of Scripture, or the apostasy of the false shepherds. You can either save your soul, and count it worthy, or you can hate your soul, and cast your lot with the Babylonian false shepherds of eternal ruin. IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

THE IDENTITY OF AMERICA AS BABYLON THE GREAT

IS YOUR KEY TO THE WHOLE MYSTERY OF THE END TIMES.


It will become very clear to you why AMERICA will produce ANTICHRIST. He will rise up right in front of the noses of the apostate Christians who will embrace Him with their whole heart, for they REJECTED TRUTH, REJECTED GOD, AND REJECTED CHRIST. It will be the deception of all deceptions. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE A PART OF THAT DECEPTION! "COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE NOT BE PARTAKERS OF HER PLAGUES.

http://americathebabylon.com/index.shtml

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon.htm

Author Background

R. A. Coombes

Biblical Prophecy has been an area of special studies and research by the author for over 30 years. It began in earnest during his years of study at the prestigious Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, Illinois; and later at Calvary Bible College of Kansas City. Afterwards, the author developed a dual career path of radio announcing as well as that of news reporter and journalist for various large and small market radio stations in the midwest. Among those he worked with in the radio industry was Rush Limbaugh, long before Rush became famous.

The author also pioneered a second career path in Sales/Marketing and also in Public Relations as a consultant for large and small clients. His most notable client was President Ronald Reagan during the 1984 re-election campaign.

Mr. Coombes believes that events in the world are accelerating towards the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Church, ...the universal body of believers around the world...is ill-prepared for what may or may not be coming either before or after His Coming. As a result of this view, the author does make himself available for educational 'teaching' seminars for churches and interested groups that would like to learn more about prophecy and or how to study the Bible most effectively for themselves in every subject not just prophecy. The author says: "The idea is to get people excited about the electrifying discoveries they can learn on their own even with just a few minimal tools. This kind of studying is electrifying for the soul. It enables the believer to have spiritual 'steak' dinners not baby food for spiritual nourishment."


Now you can know America's Future as foretold in the written Biblical Prophecies without a pulpit-pounding, hell-fire and brimstone attitude. "Just the facts, Ma'am" as the detectives on Dragnet would say.
So what is America's future?

America has defeated the lands of ancient Babylon known as Iraq. This makes America the latest world power to conquer "Babylon" and from a prophetical standpoint, America holds title to Babylon and thus America inherits the "Mystery Babylon" title. But that's only the tip of the "Mystery Babylon" iceberg that includes DOZENS of other PROOFS from the scriptures that all points to and proves that America is the only answer as to who or what is Mystery Babylon.

Volume 2 is being updated to include the latest developments from the Iraq War or as some call it -- Gulfwar2.
But there's still more to consider:

A Day of Reckoning with God. If you thought September 11th 2001 was bad consider this ...
... Divine angelic forces are standing ready to fulfill the ancient written Biblical Prophecies with a sudden attack upon "America, The Babylon."
You really need to know what has been predicted and be prepared.

Did you know that there are Biblical prophecies yet to be fulfilled which predict that just before the rise of the Antichrist and before the return of Jesus Christ, a Super-Power nation will exist called Mystery Babylon. The Biblical Prophecies indicate that this Super-Power nation will set up an alliance with Satan and his cosmic rebel angelic forces and thus allow them to have an "observation base" within that nation. The prophecies use a symbolic "code-name" for this end- of- the-era Super Power nation. The symbolic code name is: "Mystery Babylon." Today, we know this nation as the United States of America.

Now you can read about America's future!

America, The Babylon: America's Destiny Foretold In Biblical Prophecy

"Best proof I’ve seen…proven by hard logic……read your future"
Stan Deyo, author, scientist, Bible Prophecy Researcher and frequent guest on the Art Bell Coast to Coast Radio Show

http://americathebabylon.com/index.shtml


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon.htm

IF NOT AMERICA, THEN WHO?


Understanding who THE PLAYERS ARE is essential if you are to come to any understanding of THE TRUTH OF BIBLE PROPHECY, and why world events are happening as they are. Remember that Jesus warned us that DECEPTION was the KEY TO THE RISE OF ANTICHRIST. That means HE COMES TO POWER IN A PLACE NOT RECOGNIZED, AT A TIME NOT RECOGNIZED, and IN A MANNER NOT RECOGNIZED even by the vast majority of God's people, let alone the world at large. The prophetic world today is in a DEEP DELUSION, and they are looking in the WRONG AREA for the rise of the antichrist forces and LUCIFER.

We begin with an understanding of THE ACTUAL PARAMETERS that God laid down to IDENTIFY THE CHIEF PLAYER OF THE END TIMES - BABYLON THE GREAT, THAT MIGHTY END TIME NATION THAT THINKS ITS LIFE IS ETERNAL, AND WILL NEVER SEE SORROW.

WHAT THE PROPHETS SAID ABOUT BABYLON

1. Babylon would be an END TIME GREAT NATION (Rev 17,18; Isa 13:6).

2. Babylon would have a huge seaport city within its borders (Rev 18:17).

3. The Great City Babylon is the home of a world government attempt (Rev 17:18).

4. The Great City Babylon would be the economic nerve center of the world (Rev 18:3).

5. Babylon would be the center of a one world Luciferian religious movement (Jer 51:44).

6. Babylon would be the center for the move to a global economic order (Rev 13:16).

BABYLON THE NATION

1. Babylon would be the youngest and greatest of the end time nations (Jer 50:12).

2. Babylon would the QUEEN AMONG THE NATIONS (Isa 47:5,7; Rev 18:7).

3. Babylon would be the most powerful nation in the world (Isa 47, Jer 50, 51, Rev 18).

4. Babylon would be the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Jer 50:23; Rev 18:23).

5. Babylon is called a lady, and has the symbol of the Lady (Isa 47:7-9).

6. Babylon would be the praise of the WHOLE EARTH (Jer 51:41).

7. Babylon is center of world trade (Jer 51:44; Rev 17:18; 18:19).

8. Babylon would grow to be the richest nation in the world (Rev 18:3, 7, 19, 23).

9. All nations that traded with Babylon would grow rich (Rev 18:3).

10. The merchants of Babylon were the GREAT MEN OF THE EARTH (Rev 18:23).

11. Babylon is a huge nation, with lands, cities, and great wealth (implied throughout).

12. Babylon is nation "peeled", or timbered, a land of open fields (Isa 18:2).

13. Babylon is land quartered by mighty rivers (Isa 18:2).

14. Babylon is a land that is measured out, and populated throughout (Isa 18:2).

15. Babylon destroys her own land, with pollution and waste (Isa 14:20, 18:2, 7).

16. Babylon is a land rich in mineral wealth (Jer 51:13).

17. Babylon is a the leading agricultural nation of the world (Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

18. Babylon is the leading exporting nation in the world (Jer 51:13; Rev 18).

19. Babylon is the leading importing nation of the entire world.(Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

20. Babylon is a nation filled with warehouses and granaries (Jer 50:26).

21. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

22. Babylon is noted for her horses (Jer 50:37).

23. Babylon is noted for her cattle, sheep and other livestock (Jer 50:26, 27; Rev 18:13).

24. Babylon is noted for her fine flour and mill operations (Rev 18:13).

25. Babylon is a nation of farmers and harvests huge crops (Jer 50:16, 26, 27).

26. Babylon is a huge exporter of MUSIC (Rev 18:22).

27. Babylon's musicians are known around the world (Rev 18:22)

28. Babylon has a huge aviation program (Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10).

29. Babylon's skies are filled with the whisper of aircraft wings (Isa 18:1; Jer 51:53).

30. Babylon has a huge space industry, has "mounted up to the heavens" (Jer 51:53).

31. Babylon fortifies her skies with a huge military aviation program (Jer 51:53).

32. Babylon is portrayed as a leading in high tech weapons and abilities (Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10; implied throughout).

33. Babylon is a nation filled with warm water seaports (Rev 18:17-19).

34. Babylon is a coastal nation and sits upon MANY WATERS (Jer 51:13).

35. Babylon trades with all who have ships in the sea year round (Rev 18:17-18).

36. Babylon is nation filled with a "mingled" people (Jer 50:37).

37. Babylon is a SINGULAR NATION founded upon OUT OF MANY, ONE (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51, Hab 1).

38. Babylon is a REPUBLIC or a DEMOCRACY, it is ruled by many counsels (Isa 47:13).

39. Babylon's governmental system breaks down (Isa 47:13).

40. Babylon is bogged down with deliberations and cannot govern properly (Isa 47:13).

41. Babylon's leaders use astrology, seers and mystics for guidance (Isa 47:13; Rev 18:2).

42. Babylon labored in the occult from her very inception (Isa 47:12).

43. Babylon falls to the occult just before her end by nuclear fire (Rev 18:2)

44. Babylon was born as a CHRISTIAN NATION (Jer 50:12).

45. Babylon turns upon its heritage and destroys it all in the end (Jer 50:11).

46. Babylon's Christian leaders lead their flock astray in prophecy and salvation (Jer 50:6; implied Rev 18:2).

47. Babylon's Christian leaders are "strangers" in the Lord Houses of Worship (Jer 51:51).

48. The people of Babylon are deep into astrology and spiritism (Isa 47:12; Rev 18:2).

49. Babylon becomes the home of all antichrist religions in the world (Rev 18:2).

50. Babylon is a nation of religious confusion (Isa 47:12-13).

51. Babylon turns upon its own people and imprisons and slays them by millions (Jer 50:7,33; 51:35; 39; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7; 17:6; 18:24).

52. Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination (Jer 50:7, 33; 51:35, 49; Rev 17:6; 18:24).

53. Babylon has a mother nation that remains in existence from her birth to death (Jer 50: 12).

54. The mother of Babylon has the symbol of the LION (Dan7:4; Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38; Psalms 17:12).

55. The mother of Babylon will rule over her daughter her entire life (Dan 7:4; Jer 50:12).

56. The mother of Babylon will be a state of major decline as the end nears (Jer 50:12).

57. Babylon is considered to be a lion's whelp (Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38).

58. Babylon will have the symbol of the EAGLE and builds her nest in the stars (Dan 7:4 EAGLE WINGS; Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53).

59. Babylon turns totally antichrist and is the leading antichrist power at the end (Rev 18:2; Isa 14:4-6).

60. THE KING OF BABYLON is called LUCIFER, the ANTICHRIST (Isa 14:4-6).

61. The King of Babylon will rule from THE GREAT CITY BABYLON (Isa 14:4-6; Rev 17: 18).

62. A world government entity will rise up to rule the world from BABYLON THE CITY (Isa 14; Hab 2, Rev 13, 17, 18).

63. This world entity will be a diverse entity, different than all other ruling bodies of the world (Dan 7:7, 23).

64. This entity will be a TREATY POWER ENTITY (Dan 7:7, 23 DIVERSE).

65. This entity will rise up and use the military power of Babylon the nation to RULE THE WORLD (Isa 14:4-6; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13, 17).

66. Babylon is a huge producer and exporter of automobiles (Jer 50:37; Rev 18:13).

67. Babylon is a nation of CRAFTSMEN, experts in their trade (Jer 50, 51, Rev 18:22).

68. Babylon is noted for her jewelry of gold and silver (Rev 18:22).

69. Babylon is a huge importer and exporter of spices (Rev 18:13).

70. Babylon is a huge exporter of fine marble products (Rev 18:22).

71. Babylon is noted for her iron and steel production (Rev 18:12).

72. Babylon has huge corporations that have bases around the world (Rev 18:23, implied throughout)

73. Babylon is a nation of higher education and learning (Isa 47:10, implied throughout).

74. Babylon is a nation with a GREAT VOICE in world affairs (Jer 51:55)

75. Babylon is a VIRGIN NATION, untouched by major war (Isa 47:1).

76. Babylon has a vast military machine (Jer 50:36; 51:30; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13:4).

77. Babylon will be instrumental in the setting up of Israel in the Middle East, and is the home of God's people (Jer 50:47; 51:45).

78. Babylon will have a major enemy to her north (Jer 50:3, 9, 41).

79. Babylon's enemy will lie on the opposite side of the world, over the poles (Isa 13:5)

80. The enemy of Babylon will be a FEDERAL OF NATIONS (Jer 50:9).

81. The enemy of Babylon will be largely Moslem in make-up (Jer 50:17; Rev 17:16; Psalms 83:5-12).

82. The enemy of Babylon will have nuclear missiles capable of reaching Babylon (Jer 50:9, 14,; Rev 18:8, 18).

83. The enemy of Babylon will be noted for her cruelty (Isa 13, 14, Jer 50, 51, Rev 17, 18).

84. The enemy of Babylon will also have a huge aviation military machine (Jer 50:9, 14, Rev 18:8, 18 implied throughout).

85. The enemy of Babylon will come into Babylon unnoticed (Isa 47:11, Jer 50:24; 51:2, 14).

86. Babylon will be filled with her enemies brought in under the guise of peace (Dan 11:21).

87. Babylon will have all of her borders cut off, and there will be no way of

escape (Jer 50:28; 51:32).

88. Babylon will be destroyed by nuclear fire (Implied throughout)

89. Babylon is land vast land with huge cities, towns and villages throughout (Implied throughout).

90. Babylon will have been a huge missionary nation for Jesus Christ (Jer 50:11; 51:7).

91. Babylon would be a home to multitudes of Jews who leave (Jer 50:4-6, 8; 51:6, 45)

92. The people of Babylon would not know their true identity (Jer 50:6, implied throughout).

93. The people of Babylon would think they are God's elect and eternal (Isa 47:7-8, Rev 18:7).

94. The people of Babylon would enjoy the highest standard of living in the world (Rev 18:7).

95. The people of Babylon would grow mad upon their idols (Jer 50:2, 38; Hab 2:18).

96. The people of Babylon would go into deep sins of all kinds (Rev 18:5).

97. The nation Babylon dwells carelessly before the Lord (Isa 47:8).

98. Babylon becomes proud, haughty, and does not consider her end (Isa 47:7-8).

99. Babylon deals in the occult, in sorceries and drugs (Isa 47:9, 12; Rev 18:23)

These are but a few of the many parameters listed to help us identify this last great nation that the Lord calls BABYLON THE GREAT. America does now, or is in the process of fulfilling each and every one of them. No other nation upon the face of the earth can fulfill these parameters. AMERICA IS BABYLON THE GREAT. There would likewise be a series of SIGNS that would would begin to emerge that would give BIRTH TO, and WATCH THE RISE OF, as well as THE FALL OF AMERICA-BABYLON.

51. America/Babylon turns upon its own people and imprisons and slays them by millions (Jer 50:7,33; 51:35; 39; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7; 17:6; 18:24).

52. America/Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination (Jer 50:7, 33; 51:35, 49; Rev 17:6; 18:24).

http://americathebabylon.com/index.shtml

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon.htm
http://americanholocaust.homestead.com/ah_coverpage.html
http://www.texemarrs.com/122002/concentration_camps_in_america.htm
http://www.infowars.com/alex_cspan_bg.htm
http://www

The Word of God written by Men. Like the Empire State Building built by Troglydite's.

Well yes there is good and there is evil ! I dont know if thats debatable ! Is Bush a Christian? I guess that would be very debatable! With all respect to everyone here! Grog

Hello vtool,
Your concern for the safety of the brethren IS Godly, Christ WOULD want that. In my opinion, Romans 9:3 is the greatest statement ever made about concern for the Body of Christ ("For I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race"). When Paul said that, he meant that,...IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (which is why he said "COULD WISH"), he would even give up his own salvation for the sake of the brethren AND THEIR SALVATION (preservation of their souls). It is very difficult to become well versed in prophecy without also becoming very concerned with Conspiracy because of all our emotions (sensationalism). That's the same strategy that the newspapers use to attract more readers and the TV news uses for higher ratings. In spiritual matters, it is satan who uses these strategies as obstacles to keep us from doing exactly what God wants. Satan knows our weaknesses and tugs at our heartstrings (appeals to and stirs our emotions) in order to get us to forget that our real mission is the war for the preservation of the soul. You are sounding the clarion (war trumpet, warning call) of the war for the preservation of the FLESH (Ephesians 6:12 "For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the SPIRITUAL hosts of wickedness IN the HEAVENLY places".