More on merely reading the manual bu... 
Mighty.Sun.Tzu
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"When you buy a car, when do you stop searching, studying and memorizing the owners manual and begin to drive the car?"
Expounding upon this analogy... Can anybody know what it feels like to drive a Lamborghini exclusively by reading the manual and by never actually driving the vehicle? Can anybody know what it feels like to drive 220 miles per hour through simply reading about it? To turn corners as if the vehicle is on rails? To stop on a dime? Can anyone know what it feels like to sit in the drivers seat by simply reading about this seat? What it smells like inside the vehicle? To steer this vehicle without actually doing it, but only reading about it? To rev the powerful motor and to shift the gears in this vehicle?
Allowing ourselves to live unto the Lord, as branches to the Vine, transformed by Him, new creations in Him, filled with and led by His Spirit, surrendered to Him in Love, resting in His Lordship, blown by His Spirit as if by the wind with His holy power flowing through us... is not something we experience merely by reading about it. People including John MacArthur and his followers who believe "God stopped talking to His children once the bible was written" and "the gifts are not for today", believe this way simply because they are exclusively reading the manual and they have yet to drive the Lamborghini which is a requirement if we are to truly experience it.
By not actually ever stepping into the Lamborghini, turning the key and driving it, they are deceived about what it is like to do so because all they have done is searched, studied and memorized the manual as well as having drawn many false conclusions about what the manual is actually saying. They will say such things to people who have actually driven the vehicle first hand and thus know better... as "oh that Lamborghini can not go 220 miles per hour", "it doesn't corner as well as you think", "it doesn't purr like a kitten", "it's not fun to drive, it's just designed to get us from A to B", etc.
For those who are not very good with analogies, if the Lamborghini and actually driving it in this case were symbolic of "God" and actually living in living relationship with Him - and the manual was symbolic of "the bible", then these individuals are in relationship with their manual (the bible) and treating it as an idol rather than being in relationship with the Lamborghini itself (the Living God) and worshiping Him. The manual (the bible) has become a substitute god for them and they have never actually met and experienced the Lamborghini (the Living God) personally. I hope this is clear and that folks will have eyes to see that this kind of idolatry is actually going on throughout a large segment of the church that is only reading the manual but not actually driving the Lamborghini.
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Edit: More on merely reading the man... thornsandnails
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This is a reply to # 2,197,019
As a person who has traveled a lot, I have rented my fair share of vehicles. car manufacturers are always finding creative ways to hide the hood latch release, the fuel door release, depending on the make it will require specialized coolant, correct weight of oil. Some sub-compact vehicles no longer come with a spare (thank you Obama), Minivans like to ratchet them up underneath the vehicle. Most modern vehicles come with nav/entertainment systems that need to be paired through specific sequences to your smartphone. Most modern cars come with a myriad of buttons on the steering wheel to control different functions. Where do we find all the information to tell the answers to all these things in the vehicle we may not know? Even the things they may have not told you at the dealership. In the owners manual. The manual does nothing but point you to the proper operation and maintenance of the vehicle. It solely about the vehicle. just like the bible is solely about Christ. It tells about his nature, why he had to die, what he desires of us, How he loves us, how he chastises us. See where I am going, as we are experiencing this living God, he is telling us about himself through his manual.
Soli Deo Gloria
- Re: Edit: More on merely reading the... thornsandnails
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This is a reply to # 2,197,019Just for the record, Lamborghini's are overrated. Now a 1970 Cuda with a 426 Hemi. Now we are talking
- Re: More on merely reading the manua... ChaztheMeatHead
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This is a reply to # 2,197,019Yes I agree. Drop the manual and take the ride of your life, like God meant. It may not go where you think it should go, but you end up in a better place than you imagined.
And yes, drop the negative stuff being thrown at you from every angle, including the Bible sometimes. Are we able to do greater things than Jesus like he said, or are we born in sin, live in sin and die in sin, game over? I think God has greater intentions for us than that. :-)- Re: More on merely reading the manua... Mighty.Sun.Tzu
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This is a reply to # 2,197,311Yes Chaz, people who are caught up in religion of man love to quote the old testament (Jeremiah) and say, "the heart is deceitful above all things" as if we can't trust anything that comes into our hearts, but what about the idea that once we have been born again, we died to flesh, were born of Spirit and transformed into new creations in Christ and are no longer sinners but saints who hear the Lord's voice and follow Him? Do these people throw out what it is to be born again and run back to the bondage of what it was before this transformation occurred? What can they be thinking? :^). If they still feel like their heart is deceitfully wicked, that they are still sinners and not saints, could it be that they haven't actually themselves been born again? That could explain a lot of the resistance they provide against Living in and by the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus said that when we are born again, we are blown by the Spirit as if by the wind. How many religious people are experiencing this? I know i am.
- Re: More on merely reading the manua... ChaztheMeatHead
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This is a reply to # 2,197,339Great examples Tzu! That's exactly what I am talking about.
I like the example you gave of being blown by Gods will/wind and not ours. Or drifting on the water the same way like a boat with no one at the helm.
I think the Bible talks about being like a mirror too? Reflecting God's creation. Another one is being like a lake and reflecting God's reality without your interpretation of it changing it.
All of this basically says, get out of the drivers seat and let God drive.
Like you said, if you have truly given your heart over to God and have asked God to live there, then the heart can be trusted more than your mind.
The heart knows what the mind can't conceive.
Another short story about what I experienced going through that same divorce only days later on New Years Eve.
I was at a friends house and suddenly felt sick and uneasy. It was 11:45pm, right before midnight New Years Eve.
And it just got worse. Not to the point of throwing up, but half way to that point.
I sat there trying to figure out what was causing it, and suddenly I realized it wasn't about me. It was about my wife.
And I told my friend this. I thought something was wrong with my wife. I called her and no answer.
Then about 12:30am I got a call from her and she had been in a wreck and rolled down a bank and totaled the car I had bought her.
We found out the next day she had broken her neck and was taken to the biggest hospital in Seattle.
There is more to the story, but it doesn't really matter since it's about me. But the point is like you said.
If we have truly transformed and have given our hearts to God, then we can trust our heart and where God/the heart leads us. We asked God to live in our heart and we can't trust it? Even the mind knows that's wrong.
When we get that feeling that something isn't right, it first comes from the mind. That red flag pops up. But then the heart confirms it. You know in your heart that it's not right. You may not know why, but you know it's wrong. I really believe that is where the spirit of God resides. God knocks on the door to your heart and asks if he can come in and dine with you.
- Re: More on merely reading the manua... refreshed
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This is a reply to # 2,197,426No one at the helm? Hopefully that is not what MST is saying.
Add: Chaz, it is the Holy Spirit that is like the wind that goes where He goes. You and I on the other hand, are guided by the Holy Spirit. God is at the helm.-
Re: More on merely reading the manua... refreshed
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- God at the helm. Mighty.Sun.Tzu
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This is a reply to # 2,197,437Since Chaz said this:
"I like the example you gave of being blown by Gods will/wind and not ours. "
and this:
"All of this basically says, get out of the drivers seat and let God drive.",
hopefully it's pretty obvious that when he said this:
"Or drifting on the water the same way like a boat with no one at the helm. "
he meant no one at the helm except God. That's what his entire post including his personal testimony of God speaking to him was about. Hopefully it's equally obvious that this is what i was saying too.
Peace ^_^.- Re: God at the helm. trust2009
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,197,502to be born again is like the wind you hear it but not know what direction is going.
he said you hear it as a result with the sense but not see it in the mind. so that means we living in men's mind with men's work and not worked also with the spirit we would have a result separate from His to senses with the flesh thus we die without the Creator, the true one that see in his Creation. Why man imagine God as man and not all men - is it for we are controlled? Jesus is against Satan but men like evil fruit and so they get to reason to kill themselves and we say the end of the world. whom to blame? we have not changed at all with the true gospel with the true Love which Jesus wanted to teach us. know more the bible please.- Re: God at the helm. refreshed
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This is a reply to # 2,197,511Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
3:1-8 Nicodemus was afraid, or ashamed to be seen with Christ, therefore came in the night. When religion is out of fashion, there are many Nicodemites. But though he came by night, Jesus bid him welcome, and hereby taught us to encourage good beginnings, although weak. And though now he came by night, yet afterward he owned Christ publicly. He did not talk with Christ about state affairs, though he was a ruler, but about the concerns of his own soul and its salvation, and went at once to them. Our Saviour spoke of the necessity and nature of regeneration or the new birth, and at once directed Nicodemus to the source of holiness of the heart. Birth is the beginning of life; to be born again, is to begin to live anew, as those who have lived much amiss, or to little purpose. We must have a new nature, new principles, new affections, new aims. By our first birth we were corrupt, shapen in sin; therefore we must be made new creatures.
No stronger expression could have been chosen to signify a great and most remarkable change of state and character. We must be entirely different from what we were before, as that which begins to be at any time, is not, and cannot be the same with that which was before. This new birth is from heaven, ch. 1:13, and its tendency is to heaven. It is a great change made in the heart of a sinner, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It means that something is done in us, and for us, which we cannot do for ourselves. Something is wrong, whereby such a life begins as shall last for ever.
We cannot otherwise expect any benefit by Christ; it is necessary to our happiness here and hereafter. What Christ speak, Nicodemus misunderstood, as if there had been no other way of regenerating and new-moulding an immortal soul, than by new-framing the body. But he acknowledged his ignorance, which shows a desire to be better informed. It is then further explained by the Lord Jesus. He shows the Author of this blessed change. It is not wrought by any wisdom or power of our own, but by the power of the blessed Spirit.
We are shapen in iniquity, which makes it necessary that our nature be changed. We are not to marvel at this; for, when we consider the holiness of God, the depravity of our nature, and the happiness set before us, we shall not think it strange that so much stress is laid upon this. The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water. It is also probable that Christ had reference to the ordinance of baptism. Not that all those, and those only, that are baptized, are saved; but without that new birth which is wrought by the Spirit, and signified by baptism, none shall be subjects of the kingdom of heaven. The same word signifies both the wind and the Spirit.
The wind bloweth where it listeth for us; God directs it. The Spirit sends his influences where, and when, on whom, and in what measure and degree, he pleases. Though the causes are hidden, the effects are plain, when the soul is brought to mourn for sin, and to breathe after Christ. Christ's stating of the doctrine and the necessity of regeneration, it should seem, made it not clearer to Nicodemus. Thus the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the natural man. Many think that cannot be proved, which they cannot believe. Christ's discourse of gospel truths, ver. 11-13, shows the folly of those who make these things strange unto them; and it recommends us to search them out.
Jesus Christ is every way able to reveal the will of God to us; for he came down from heaven, and yet is in heaven. We have here a notice of Christ's two distinct natures in one person, so that while he is the Son of man, yet he is in heaven. God is the HE THAT IS, and heaven is the dwelling-place of his holiness. The knowledge of this must be from above, and can be received by faith alone. Jesus Christ came to save us by healing us, as the children of Israel, stung with fiery serpents, were cured and lived by looking up to the brazen serpent, Nu 21:6-9. In this observe the deadly and destructive nature of sin.
Ask awakened consciences, ask damned sinners, they will tell you, that how charming soever the allurements of sin may be, at the last it bites like a serpent. See the powerful remedy against this fatal malady. Christ is plainly set forth to us in the gospel. He whom we offended is our Peace, and the way of applying for a cure is by believing. If any so far slight either their disease by sin, or the method of cure by Christ, as not to receive Christ upon his own terms, their ruin is upon their own heads.
He has said, Look and be saved, look and live; lift up the eyes of your faith to Christ crucified. And until we have grace to do this, we shall not be cured, but still are wounded with the stings of Satan, and in a dying state.
Jesus Christ came to save us by pardoning us, that we might not die by the sentence of the law. Here is gospel, good news indeed. Here is God's love in giving his Son for the world. God so loved the world; so really, so richly. Behold and wonder, that the great God should love such a worthless world! Here, also, is the great gospel duty, to believe in Jesus Christ. God having given him to be our Prophet, Priest, and King, we must give up ourselves to be ruled, and taught, and saved by him. And here is the great gospel benefit, that whoever believes in Christ, shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, and so saving it. It could not be saved, but through him; there is no salvation in any other.
From all this is shown the happiness of true believers; he that believeth in Christ is not condemned. Though he has been a great sinner, yet he is not dealt with according to what his sins deserve. How great is the sin of unbelievers! God sent One to save us, that was dearest to himself; and shall he not be dearest to us? How great is the misery of unbelievers! they are condemned already; which speaks a certain condemnation; a present condemnation. The wrath of God now fastens upon them; and their own hearts condemn them. There is also a condemnation grounded on their former guilt; they are open to the law for all their sins; because they are not by faith interested in the gospel pardon.
Unbelief is a sin against the remedy. It springs from the enmity of the heart of man to God, from love of sin in some form. Read also the doom of those that would not know Christ. Sinful works are works of darkness. The wicked world keep as far from this light as they can, lest their deeds should be reproved. Christ is hated, because sin is loved. If they had not hated saving knowledge, they would not sit down contentedly in condemning ignorance. On the other hand, renewed hearts bid this light welcome.
A good man acts truly and sincerely in all he does. He desires to know what the will of God is, and to do it, though against his own worldly interest. A change in his whole character and conduct has taken place. The love of God is shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost, and is become the commanding principle of his actions. So long as he continues under a load of unforgiven guilt, there can be little else than slavish fear of God; but when his doubts are done away, when he sees the righteous ground whereon this forgiveness is built, he rests on it as his own, and is united to God by unfeigned love.
Our works are good when the will of God is the rule of them, and the glory of God the end of them; when they are done in his strength, and for his sake; to him, and not to men. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a subject to which the world is very averse; it is, however, the grand concern, in comparison with which every thing else is but trifling.
What does it signify though we have food to eat in plenty, and variety of raiment to put on, if we are not born again? if after a few mornings and evenings spent in unthinking mirth, carnal pleasure, and riot, we die in our sins, and lie down in sorrow? What does it signify though we are well able to act our parts in life, in every other respect, if at last we hear from the Supreme Judge, Depart from me, I know you not, ye workers of iniquity?
- Re: God at the helm. refreshed
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- Re: God at the helm. trust2009
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- Re: More on merely reading the manua... refreshed
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- Re: More on merely reading the manua... thornsandnails
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This is a reply to # 2,197,339
Paul himself said
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
(Romans 7:14-20 ESV)
So this is not running to bondage but being honest that even though our hearts have been changed. We still have flesh and this struggle will go on until our corruption puts on incorruption.
You keep using a phrase "religion of man" while promoting Bill Johnson's church which you yourself has said "one of the most Spirit filled churches in the country". While the pastor denies the Deity of Christ, His Church promotes the practices of necromancy and divination (witchcraft), and while his wife promotes the use of new age concepts as Christianity.
Sorry, this is the religion of man- Re: More on merely reading the manua... trust2009
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This is a reply to # 2,197,451Jesus said if man do not know what he is doing he is cursed and against the law. Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing. responsibility given to man from God.
- Re: More on merely reading the manua... trust2009
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This is a reply to # 2,197,451that what I saw and the sin is killing the flesh until corruption end up, all the hate change into all love, no flesh but man's world, only mind but no heart, no nature, that is spiritual realm and conscious with no God,
I think. fighting against God creation. well very good. - Re: More on merely reading the manua... Mighty.Sun.Tzu
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,197,451In the romans 7 passage you quoted, Paul is talking about what it's like before being born again. Why get trapped/imprisoned/held in bondage there and not go on to read and live romans 8? Perhaps people stuck in Romans 7 have not actually been born again or maybe then they would know that something has been transformed within themselves because they would actually tangibly know and feel the difference.
Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[notice the word HOWEVER coming up next]
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[please let romans 8:9 sink in because it's quite essential to understanding what it is to live in Spirit and not in flesh. Also according to Paul, it is clearly attainable. Do you have the Spirit of Christ and thus belong to Him? if so, then you are not in flesh, but in Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in you.]
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness...
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
[are you being led by the Spirit of God? are you a son of God?]
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
[if this testifying by the Holy Spirit is not happening within our spirit, we might want to ask God why it's not]
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
On to the next point, your attacks against bill johnson are addressed in another post here where you came against him also:
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2197608#i
- Re: More on merely reading the manua... trust2009
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- Re: More on merely reading the manua... Mighty.Sun.Tzu
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