Natway, anorexia symptoms 
c.b.
10 y
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Here's the link to the symptoms you posted of anorexia:
http://curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2045586
Here's an actual list of signs and symptoms from NIH.gov:
Signs and Symptoms of Anorexia Nervosa
Extreme thinness (emaciation)
A relentless pursuit of thinness and unwillingness to maintain a normal or healthy weight
Intense fear of gaining weight
Distorted body image, a self-esteem that is heavily influenced by perceptions of body weight and shape, or a denial of the seriousness of low body weight
Lack of menstruation among girls and women
Extremely restricted eating.
Thinning of the bones (osteopenia or osteoporosis)
Brittle hair and nails
Dry and yellowish skin
Growth of fine hair all over the body (lanugo)
Mild anemia and muscle wasting and weakness
Severe constipation
Low blood pressure, slowed breathing and pulse
Damage to the structure and function of the heart
Brain damage
Multiorgan failure
Drop in internal body temperature, causing a person to feel cold all the time
Lethargy, sluggishness, or feeling tired all the time
Infertility.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/eating-disorders/index.shtml
These don't really follow common AF symptoms, besides lethargy. I think the page where you got the symptoms might not be credible.
"Because out of all the things that can cause exhaustion, starvation causes the most of the same symptoms all by itself. Say there are 10 symptoms of "AF". Starvation can cause all those same 10, where as other things that can cause fatigue only cause 8, or 6, or only 4 of those 10 symptoms. Make sense? Add the addition that as I said, most in the AF under-eat."
The list of symptoms you are referring to aren't common Anorexia Nervosa. And even if they were your logic is that of correlation, which we know may or may not imply causation.
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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This is a reply to # 2,167,170Maybe we should start with what are all the agreed upon symptoms of so-called "AF"?- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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This is a reply to # 2,167,194I've thought about what I might rename the AF forum...
"Adrenals that don't make enough hormones support forum"
Because, regardless of whether the problem lies with the "H", "P", or "A" of the HPA axis, the adrenals are still not making adequate hormones whether its their fault or not.
This can be verified through salivary testing. Which I also believe to be the answer to one of your questions in another post (the scientific evidence as proof AF exists).
The only thing left to do is have the "H" and "P" tested to ensure they are not responsible for the low hormone output. Then I think you have to accept that adrenals are in a hypo state.
Question is...is all that testing, money, and time worth it just to find out that you have to take some herbals, vitamins, rest, stop stressing, and eat healthy?
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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This is a reply to # 2,167,170Comparison of anorexia symptoms with her "AF" symptoms below shows they are virtually identical.
Her list of "AF" symptoms:
1-fatigue
2-insomnia, sleep disturbances
3-poor digestion
4-poor immunity, frequent colds, flu, infections
5-low blood pressure
6-sensitivity to cold
7-poor recovery from exercise
8-anxiety, depression
9-irritability
10-poor memory, brain fog
11-loss of appetite or excessive appetite, cravings
12-reproductive hormone dysfunction
https://gokaleo.com/2013/01/25/adrenal-fatigue-as-a-cover-for-starvation/
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2045586
Symptoms of anorexia compared to her "AF" symptoms list:
1-Fatigue (1)
2-Insomnia (1)
3-Bloating and constipation (4)
4-Frequent illness (2), Abnormal blood counts (1)
5-Low blood pressure (1)
6-Intolerance of cold (1)
7-Wasting away of muscle (3)
8-Depression, anxiety (2)
9-Irritability (1)
10-Confused or slow thinking, along with poor memory or judgment (3)
11-Denial of hunger, Refusal to eat (1)
12-Infrequent or irregular, or even missed menstrual periods in females. (2)
(1) http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/anorexia/basics/symptoms/con-20...
(2) http://www.webmd.boots.com/mental-health/mental-health-anorexia-nervosa
(3) http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000362.htm
(4) http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/eating-disorders
More anorexia symptoms (1):
Extreme weight loss
Thin appearance
Dizziness or fainting
A bluish discoloration of the fingers
Hair that thins, breaks or falls out
Soft, downy hair covering the body
Dry skin
Irregular heart rhythms
Dehydration
Osteoporosis
Swelling of arms or legs
Afraid of gaining weight
Lying about how much food has been eaten
Excessive exercise
Flat mood (lack of emotion)
Social withdrawal
Preoccupation with food
Reduced interest in sex
Possible use of laxatives, diet aids or herbal products
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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This is a reply to # 2,167,388Keep in mind that I'm not saying "AF" is strictly anorexia.
I'm saying "AF" is starvation/malnutrition caused by prolonged calorie-restriction, such as anorexia or other eating disorders, but also by accidentally under-eating from living a busy lifestyle, or those who were condition that you have to eat at a calorie-deficit to lose weight and maintain being slim but not to the point of them necessarily having an eating disorder.
Calorie-restriction is calorie-restriction no matter what the cause. - Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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2,905
This is a reply to # 2,167,388My problem with your list is that you are selecting only the symptoms from those various sources that also fit the criteria of what are considered AF symptoms.
By doing so, you compeletely disregard these:
Extreme weight loss
Thin appearance
Dizziness or fainting
A bluish discoloration of the fingers
Hair that thins, breaks or falls out
Soft, downy hair covering the body
Dry skin
Irregular heart rhythms
Dehydration
Osteoporosis
Swelling of arms or legs
Afraid of gaining weight
Lying about how much food has been eaten
Excessive exercise
Flat mood (lack of emotion)
Social withdrawal
Preoccupation with food
Reduced interest in sex
Possible use of laxatives, diet aids or herbal products
Which I think is essential in diagnosing an illness.
All symptoms must be considered AS WELL AS symptoms that are not present.
So, can you really say that someone is anorexic if they have: (1st list)fatigue, insomnia, bloating, low blood pressure, etc. Without also evaluating whether they have: (3rd list)extreme weight loss, thin appearance, dizziness or fainting, bluish discoloration of the fingers, etc.?
I don't think so.- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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This is a reply to # 2,167,409I was just showing that all the "AF" symptoms she listed are also symptoms that fit anorexia, but that doesn't mean everyone that has the "AF" symptoms she listed is suffering from anorexia as I partly explained in my last post above.
Starvation will cause all those symptoms she listed and starvation is also what all anorexics will eventually suffer from along with anyone who calorie-restricts long enough.
My whole point is all the symptoms people are listing for "AF" are also the symptoms of malnutrition/starvation that's caused by prolonged calorie-restriction, whether from accidentally under-eating, or calorie-restricting on purpose, such as eating disorders like anorexia. That can't be denied.
As far as those other symptoms of anorexia, I've seen a lot of people in the AF support section complain or mention the following:
Extreme weight loss
Dizziness or fainting
Hair that thins, breaks or falls out
Soft, downy hair covering the body
Dry skin
Irregular heart rhythms
Swelling of arms or legs
Excessive exercise
Reduced interest in sex- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
10 y
3,136
This is a reply to # 2,167,427"My whole point is all the symptoms people are listing for "AF" are also the symptoms of malnutrition/starvation that's caused by prolonged calorie-restriction, whether from accidentally under-eating, or calorie-restricting on purpose, such as eating disorders like anorexia. That can't be denied."
And also a slew of other conditions. So what's your point?
Starting with fatigue, at least this many conditions can have a symptom of fatigue:
Allergic Rhinitis
Anemia
Anxiety
Atherosclerosis
Bone Cancer
Bronchitis
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Cirrhosis
Colorectal Cancer
Congestive Heart Failure
Crohn's Disease
Cystic Fibrosis
Depression
Diabetes Mellitus
Endocarditis
Erythema
Fibromyalgia
Heat Exhaustion
Hepatitis, Viral
Hyperkalemia
Hypoglycemia
Influenza
Insomnia
Intestinal Parasites
Leukemia
Lymphoma
Migraine Headache
Mononucleosis
Motion Sickness
Multiple Sclerosis
Myeloproliferative Disorders
Osteomyelitis
Pericarditis
Premenstrual Syndrome
Pulmonary Hypertension
Radiation Damage
Rheumatoid Arthritis
Sarcoidosis
Sinus Headache
Sinusitis
Sleep Apnea
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
Tension Headache
Tuberculosis
Varicella-Zoster Virus
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/condition-symptom-links/conditions-with-...
Insomnia:
Anxiety
Depression
Bipolar disorder
Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder
Post-traumatic stress disorder
allergies, benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), arthritis, gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD), asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disorder (COPD), rheumatologic conditions, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, hyperthyroidism, epilepsy, and fibromyalgia.
stress and Depression are major causes of insomnia
An acute illness
Injury or surgery
The loss of a loved one
Job loss
Temporary insomnia can also develop after a relatively minor event, including:
Extremes in weather
An exam
Traveling, particularly across time zones
Trouble at work
http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/insomnia
Bloating:
Air swallowing (a nervous habit)
Constipation
Gastroesophageal reflux
Irritable bowel syndrome
Lactose intolerance and other food intolerances
Overeating
Small bowel bacterial overgrowth
Weight gain
Ascites and tumors
Celiac disease
Dumping syndrome
Ovarian cancer
When the pancreas is not able to make enzymes needed for digestion (pancreatic insufficiency)
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003123.htm
Constipation:
diets low in fiber
lack of physical activity
medications
life changes or daily routine changes
ignoring the urge to have a bowel movement
neurological and metabolic disorders
GI tract problems
functional GI disorders
pain medications, especially narcotics
antacids that contain aluminum and calcium
calcium channel blockers, which are used to treat high blood pressure and heart disease
medications that treat Parkinson’s disease—a disorder that affects nerve cells in a part of the brain that controls muscle movement—because these medications also affect the nerves in the colon wall
antispasmodics—medications that prevent sudden muscle contractions
some antidepressants
iron supplements
diuretics—medications that help the kidneys remove fluid from the blood
anticonvulsants—medications that decrease abnormal electrical activity in the brain to prevent seizures
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/constipation/
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,167,439Let me be clear, I'm saying that the medical condition of starvation (which anorexia is one cause) fits or can explain just about every single symptom that's listed for so-called "AF".
You are just taking every individual symptom listed for "AF" and showing all the conditions that can cause that specific symptom.
Only starvation fits all the so-called "AF" symptoms which is partly why I think "AF" is a misdiagnosis of malnutrition/starvation along with other evidence like more women get those symptoms than men because more women under-eat than men.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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This is a reply to # 2,167,427For times sake and laziness, lol, I stopped at constipation, but I'm sure you can imagine that every single symptom listed has a lot of possible conditions.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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This is a reply to # 2,167,388
Her list of AF symptoms:
1-fatigue
2-insomnia, sleep disturbances
3-poor digestion
4-poor immunity, frequent colds, flu, infections
5-low blood pressure
6-sensitivity to cold
7-poor recovery from exercise
8-anxiety, depression
9-irritability
10-poor memory, brain fog
11-loss of appetite or excessive appetite, cravings
12-reproductive hormone dysfunction
Symptoms of Hypothyroidism:
1-Exhaustion in every dimension–physical, mental, spiritual, emotional (1)
2-insomnia (3)
3-Constipation (1)
4-Candida; sore throat; Swollen lymph glands; Allergies; Headaches and Migraines (1)
5-Blood Pressure problems (1)
6-Increased sensitivity to cold temperature (2)
7-Long recovery period after any activity (1)
8-Major anxiety/worry; Chronic Low Grade Depression (1)
9-Extremely crabby, irritable, intolerant of others (1)
10-Forgetfulness, Foggy thinking (1)
11-No Appetite (1)
12-NO sex drive; Failure to ovulate and/or constant bleeding (1)
(1) http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/
(2) http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000353.htm
(3) http://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/could-it-be-my-thyroid
Does this mean that everyone with AF is not only anorexic (CR/starving...), but they are also hypothyroid?
<-Insert sarcasm here.- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
10 y
2,945
This is a reply to # 2,167,573Actually yes! I was just about to post about this!
I've mentioned in the past that under-eating can cause hypothyroid (here & here) and I was working on putting together a more expansive symptoms list comparing all the so-called "AF" symptoms with symptoms of malnutrition/starvation and I notice that most of the "AF" symptoms fit hypothyroid symptoms by itself as you conveniently displayed above.
What you are seeing is most of these so-called "AF" symptoms are directly caused by hypothyroid which was caused by prolonged calorie-restriction.
Almost everyone in the AF section has a history of calorie-restriction and almost everyone in the AF section has also complained of low thyroid.
Hypothyroid is the direct cause of most of the so-called "AF" symptoms. Under-eating is the root cause of most people's hypothyroid.
Under-eating > hypothyroid > "AF" symptoms
It's that simple.
I'm not saying under-eating is the root cause over everyone's hypothyroid or that it's the only cause. Just saying it's the root cause to the majority of the people's hypothyroid in the AF section.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
10 y
2,930
This is a reply to # 2,167,702"What you are seeing is most of these so-called "AF" symptoms are directly caused by hypothyroid which was caused by prolonged calorie-restriction."
The 2 most common causes of hypoT is Hashimoto's thyroiditis (autoimmune disorder) and overtreatment of hyperthyroidism (an overactive thyroid).
http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/hypothyroidism
Iodine deficiency can result in hypoT, which could be the result of under-eating, but under-eating is not the primary cause of hypoT. Iodine deficiency occurs where people are eating a substantial amount, yet they still develop hypoT.
You keep saying that the majority of people were/are under-eating in the AF section.
First off you can't make this claim because you don't know how many people are in the AF section, so to say the "majority" is flat wrong.
But, here in lies the opportunity to provide some evidence. List this "majority" so I can count them; otherwise, your "majority" speech is meaningless. Show me that there is a majority.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
10 y
3,203
This is a reply to # 2,167,712Evidence under-eating causes hypothyroid:
- Medical Conditions Associated with Hypothyroidism
Anorexia or bulimia. People with eating disorders are at risk for hypothyroidism. In these patients, however, reduced thyroid function may be an adaptation to malnutrition and, therefore, some experts think that only the eating disorder should be treated, not hypothyroidism.
http://health.kernan.org/patiented/articles/what_symptoms_of_hypothyroidism_0...
- Medical Conditions Associated with Hypothyroidism
Eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa. In these patients, reduced thyroid function may be an adaptation to malnutrition.
http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/hypothyroidism
- Complications of Anorexia
Hormonal Changes: Thyroid hormones are lower.
http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/eating-disorders
Random personal medical or health sites that say the same thing (you can judge their credibility):
- Deficiencies leading to Hypothyroidism by Impairing T3 to T4 Conversion
Nutrition: Fasting, starvation, anorexia, protein or calorie malnutrition, lack of hydrocarbons, lack of fats (severe deficiency)
http://restorativemedicine.org/books/fundamentals-of-naturopathic-endocrinolo...
- Who is at Risk for Underactive Thyroid?
Dieting, especially starvation diets which severely restrict caloric intake, is another common cause of underactive thyroid. Starvation slows the body's metabolism as the thyroid gland learns to expend energy more efficiently to conserve calories for the next "famine." After a starvation diet we have a tendency to gain even more weight than we took off, and we may find it even harder to lose weight the next time we try. A low-calorie diet can suppress the thyroid function in less than 24 hours. After one to three months of such dieting, there is a danger of permanently inhibiting the thyroid function.
http://www.naturalhealthschool.com/thyroid.html
"Other causes of hypothyroidism may include a deficiency in dietary Iodine and/or selenium, stress and burnout, external radiation, surgical removal of the thyroid gland, estrogen dominance, overzealous dieting or eating disorders such as anorexia"
http://drhoffman.com/article/hypothyroidism/
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,167,735Nice! I'll go ahead and commend you for this as I don't have time to dig into it myself right now.
But from the looks of it, it looks legit.
I still think that there is a very small percentage of the population under-eating. So IMO its not responsible for AF.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
10 y
2,851
This is a reply to # 2,167,774Thanks.
Well there might be a small percentage of the population is society that are under-eating, but there is a LARGE percentage of the population in the AF forum who are under-eating from what I have observed and found.
- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms natway
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
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This is a reply to # 2,167,702
"I'm not saying under-eating is the root cause over everyone's hypothyroid or that it's the only cause. Just saying it's the root cause to the majority of the people's hypothyroid in the AF section. "
That's pretty much exactly what you are saying when you write this: "Under-eating > hypothyroid > "AF" symptoms"
and this: "Hypothyroid is the direct cause of most of the so-called "AF" symptoms. Under-eating is the root cause of most people's hypothyroid."
and this as well: "What you are seeing is most of these so-called "AF" symptoms are directly caused by hypothyroid which was caused by prolonged calorie-restriction."
"Almost everyone in the AF section has a history of calorie-restriction"
How do you know? What constitutes "almost everyone"? I'd love to see these statistics!
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This is a reply to # 2,167,170Interesting thing Dr. James Wilson lists on his "AF" quiz:
"I suffer from anorexia."
https://www.adrenalfatigue.org/take-the-adrenal-fatigue-quiz
Almost everything on his quiz can be explained by or caused by starvation or eating disorders.- Re: Natway, anorexia symptoms c.b.
10 y
2,851
This is a reply to # 2,167,430""I suffer from anorexia.""
That was listed as a predisposing factor. In other words, it can contribute to AF. He wasn't saying it is the same thing.
We have already agreed that not eating can pose stress on the body. This is all Wilson i saying.
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