I'll have a look at all the links and may comment more later, but personally I don't wish to take the risk of meat or dairy because of the stuff Esselstyn has uncovered. In another blog, I have looked at his video and his colleague Doctor Crowe is a living example of 100% reversal of a heart condition that was judged to be fatal many years ago, but was REVERSED by a plant based diet. Now he is 100% well!
Secondly, since eating all plant, and keeping off meat for several weeks, meat and fish now feel "wrong" to me. And I was someone who loved meat, salt, dairy - but not sugar, I went off that in my teens.
Thirdly, a number of findings by different support the non dairy / meat angles. Fuhrman and others. Then there is the aspect of carcinogens in cooked meat, i.e. on the burnt surface.
Fourthly, I am currently reading "A Delicate Balance - the Truth" and there is evidence in this book to suggest that dairy and meat is dangerous, though it is true that no distinction is made for organic. They also say this, which is interesting:
"Despite the historical evidence, many people still believe that humans were built to eat flesh from animals. This is also not so. The structure of our teeth and digestive system speaks to the contrary.
Plutarch, a Greek priest and philosopher, wrote some 2,000 years ago, “ man has no curved beak, no sharp talons or claws, no pointed teeth... on the contrary, by the smoothness of his teeth, the small capacity of his mouth, the softness of his tongue and the sluggishness of his digestive apparatus, nature sternly forbids him to feed on flesh”.
All animals that feed on the flesh of others have very short digestive systems - about 3 times the length of their body. This enables speedy removal of decaying flesh, which can poison their body if it stays too long. They also have very acidic saliva and their stomachs produce large amounts of hydrochloric acid, which is necessary to digest flesh.
The human digestive tract is 12 times the length of our body. Plants and vegetables take longer to digest because of the fibre they contain. Meat has no fibre at all and so the nutrients can be extracted a lot faster.
Because of our long digestive tract, the meat we eat putrefies. Can this putrefaction with the resulting release of toxins and proliferation of bacteria be good for us ?!
Our saliva is alkaline and contains a special enzyme necessary to pre-digest grain. This degree of specialization takes thousands of years of evolution to develop. It is the result of human beings consistently eating grains. Our so-called canine teeth are canine only in name. Compared to carnivorous animals, our canines are not sharp enough or strong enough to tear cooked, let alone raw flesh."
If you had no tools or method of cooking, how exactly would you catch and kill an animal and digest it?
Fifthly I am aware of that Chris Masterjohn, but again all the evidence from Esselstyn, and what Dr Fuhrman says of him. Posted that somewhere too.
Sixthly what about the sustainability of meat, even if it is safe? Huge amounts of land and water is used to make grain for animal feed. How will we do that when oil declines?
Incidentally Campbell asked questions about this in this lecture, it was barely audible but this is what I picked up. I'll reproduce it here for you:
"Q. What about organic meat, is this safer?
A. I wish we had the answer to this. Probably grass fed beef would be safer. Less fat on grazing cows. How much to the junk and how much to the protein? We have looked at the composition of wild game and found it to be quite different, and it would appear to indicate there would be less problems.
(barely audible) any studies?
Maybe, but we don't know of them. But there are still lots of problems with this type of food, eg no fibre etc.
(barely audible) what was the meat like in China?
Primary was pork and chicken. Chinese kept their own cows and chickens but were reserved for feasts.
(barely audible) organic
Yes I think so. [1 hr 25 mins]"
So there may be some truth in what you say, however most of the healthiest people in the world eat no meat or extremely small amounts of meat and fish, eg at religious festivals only.
Given what I know currently, I personally am choosing the plant based path. I don't miss meat one bit. That surprises me to a certain extent, though I put it down to my appetite being "normalised" after being 6 weeks on Fuhrman's Eat to Live plan.
As Campbell says, what we need is a study, but where can we get organic animals or fish these days? Most fish now have heavy metal in them. And there are loads of other medical sources out there that say that meat dairy is dangerous, but I can't find one that says plant based is dangerous. Given this, what logical reason is there to eat meat, until at least we know better?
Like I say I'll read your links, and if I find any there I'll add a comment. Thanks for your post