Date:   6/30/2007 10:36:47 AM ( 17 y ago)
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URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=909620

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C -- "The source of the poison is not “Funny Proteins” as ML so colloquially puts it but melamine, which could not be considered a protein under any circumstances. This is a maliciously false argument; it is clear from what we’ve learned that this is a case of intentional contamination. To suggest, that melamine is protein would be like saying cyanide is also protein because it contains Nitrogen."

I know your issue is with the term "funny proteins". Would the use of the term "fake protein" be more appropriate? That is what these nitrogen based products are used for... to "fake" protein content.

In addition your reference to melemine only is not true... cyanuric acid is now also associated with the melenine along with 2 other nitrogen (NPN) based products in some cases. The synergistic effect that they have is overloading the body with nitrogen and causing renal failure. In addition, for the readers benefit, these have been found in rice, corn, and soy gluten in addition to wheat now... the news has been a little quiet about this for some reason.

One can test for melenine and cyanuric acid all they want, you know as well as I do that there are many other things that can be used to do this same thing that will STILL bypass testing.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14467

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/business/petfood.php

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/01/recall.riddle/index.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1839471/posts

Cyanuric acid is even cheaper than melenine and is/was increasing profits for the manufacturers. Cyanuric acid and melemine TOGETHER act synergistically (something Science may be getting a grip on as it relates to life metabolism finally, albeit they will never be able to study all the different chemical combinations over the course of several thousands of years) to form crystals in the kidneys blocking the tubes.

I apologize; I could not find the links with the other 2 chemicals (I had them up last night but lost them) found in the food products. The point remains that food manufacturers can test for melemine and/or cyanuric acid, and will miss a whole host of other waste products/chemicals that can do exactly the same thing.

If the known history of reporting such things is remembered, the current issues with melemine and cyanuric acid are most likely being grossly understated.

C -- "Well, then you’ve wandered off topic, the case with China is about contamination, not funny proteins. He is wrongly linking a clear case of food contamination with his ideas about NPN."

This was not a case of food contamination. It was a deliberate use of these chemical products to increase the profit margins by boosting fake "protein" levels with nitrogen containing compounds and it has been done for years, possibly decades.

C -- "NPN is not protein. NPN is not free nitrogen. Free Nitrogen is (N2) nitrogen gas. NPN is a term that encompasses any nitrogenous compound not including proteins – it can include a variety of organic and inorganic compounds. Certainly the Chinese case cannot be proof for any of his points."

You are right... Non-"protein" nitrogen (NPN). However, how is the common man without any Science supposed to understand it? How would you describe it? It Is and has been used to boost erroneously the 'perceived" protein content of food. How would you illustrate that so that people understood it and the implications?

C -- "Wrong. While technically it is true that Melamine would fall under the category of NPN. Melamine is a poison because it seems to interfere with proper function, not because it is NPN (a wide definition that could be applied to anything. For example cyanide could also be considered NPN. Now it cyanide poisonous because it happens to fall into this category? Naturally not, it is because it inhibits cellular metabolism."

Not sure on dosing, however it is true that if the kidneys are overloaded with nitrogen, it can result in kidney failure. I am sure you are familiar with kidney dialysis and the use of total body nitrogen as a marker. "poison" or "too much nitrogen" mincing words here.

As far as your reference to chlorophyll, we all know that nitrogen is essential to life. In this case too much of a good thing, "nitrogen" also can take life away. Minimizing or dismissing the "melemine" issue as it relates to health with a reference to Chlorophyll is misleading IMO.

ML -- “The two companies illegally added melamine”

More than 2 companies have been doing this... 2 were caught initially.

C -- "May I highlight that even in China, this is illegal. This is an issue of QA/QC and the need for government inspections. But even here our food is not inspected to the level it probably should be, case in point the recent spinach e.coli outbreaks, as well as the carrot juice outbreak, every summer there is problem with ground beef, salads, ect."

Agreed. It is also illegal to do many other things but it is not apparently stopping businesses from doing them in the name of profit.

C -- "Either way, this is about illegal actions, profiteering, and intentional food poisoning and not about NPN as ML would have us believe."

I agree with the first part of your statement... however as it relates to the health of the consumer it is about NPN containing substances in our foods. Would you be comfortable sitting down unknowingly to a meal laced with a good amount of both melenine and cyanuric acid?

ML -- "Just like taking Elemental Iodine, which is a Drug and may Poison in the Elemental form, when getting too much of it in relationship to the needed Alkaline Minerals !"

C -- "The people in the Iodine support forum would disagree; everything is a poison if taken in excess. Even drinking pure water is poisonous if you drink too much of it, the result is a potentially fatal condition called hyponatremia."

ML qualified his statement with alkaline minerals, thus a little with balance is not a poison; I think you two agreed :-) Also notice, that some people in the Iodine forum are taking scads of all kinds of mineral supplements. ML has stated what you just stated on several occasions as well... I think I just witnessed history here.

C -- "Wrong again. The problem with food picked to early has nothing to do with NPN, and it is more about taste and the nature of the carbohydrates. For example in bananas, when eaten green are very starchy, the breakdown of these starches into more digestible carbohydrates is what makes it palatable and easier to digest. The chemistry of ripening is complex, but it mainly about the carbs, bioactive enzymes, esters and not what ML thinks as protein. This makes sense when you consider that most fruits and vegetables are mainly water and carbohydrates, with proteins making up a minor portion of their content. For example in the banana the starch levels of a green fruit will continue to decrease and the Sugar levels rise especially fructose and glucose. Proteins are not being manufactured in this example; all that is happening is that enzymes are breaking down the starches. Naturally it is more complicated than this, as in some cases esters are synthesized optimally under the vine, so product picked early lack flavour."

Not bad, but nitrogen content in food IS higher in foods picked green. Your paragraph is somewhat of a misdirection. Whether the increased levels of nitrogen are described as NPN or not, it does leave one to question. I understand you take issue with this, but perhaps the idea is right and Science needs to catch up. Nitrogen levels are also higher in foods grown with a nitrogen based fertilizer. In some cases nitrogen is used to speed the ripening process... more questions.

ML -- "The feed Industry has for years been feeding "Urea" NPN to cattle and calling it High Protein supplement, and they still do this in the USA !!!!!!!!!"

C -- "It is true that urea is used in cattle feed, but unlike us, ruminants are able to process a relatively high amounts of urea and convert it to protein. The short version is this: in the stomachs of ruminants the bacteria will break down urea into ammonia and then the bacteria combined it with available carbohydrates to form amino acids and proteins."
http://www.agnet.org/library/pt/2001019/

Agreement again... there is a balancing act with this though. Too much is not good either.

C -- "If free nitrogen is a problem then food is the least of our worries, we should be scared every time we inhale as the air we breathe is 78% free nitrogen. In comparison we take so much more “free nitrogen” from breathing the addition of it from food is insignificant."

This is again IMO misleading. Metabolism of nitrogen through respiration is very different than metabolism of nitrogen through digestion. I believe you would agree with that.
 

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