Date:   5/9/2002 2:01:54 PM ( 22 y ago)
Hits:   4,036
URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=65537

I'll just add comments after the relevant quotes.


You might also want to note that cholesterol is the basic building block at the beginning of a bunch of different chemical cycles which produce hormones (including, say, testosterone and estrogen)... Cholesterol isn't a waste product. It's a vitally important substance.


(Let's see... the medical establishment is all the rage about how bad cholesterol is... and yet it's needed for hormones... and then we have all these women running around with "hormone problems"... coincidence? I think not.)



> My theory of the formation of cholesterol gull stones:
> The stones that one gets from the Liver Flush are no doubt made of
> cholesterol. This is true. I believe how and where they are
> formed is misunderstood.
> When the flush is performed, one consumes Epsom Salt to dilate the
> bile ducts. I have not verified any validity to this other than
> magnesium has a relaxing effect on smooth muscle tissue, which
> means it would relax the gull and duct muscles. This is accepted
> as fact of this mineral on muscle tissue.

OK. You're conceding this point... it is kinda hard to see this occur without some sort of intestinal camera. On the other hand, I can actually feel... weird... things... going... on... down there after I drink the Epsom Salts .

> Then, after eating a very light meal you fast for the rest of the
> day (many fast for longer). The liver still produces bile during
> this time and it stores it in the gull and bile ducts. So you are
> essentially filling up the gull bladder with bile during the fast.

OK. I'll let this one slide. Neither side argues this point.

> You then drink a massive dose of olive oil (fat) and lemon or
> grapefruit juice. I still do not know what effect the
> lemon/grapefruit has in this flush. The olive oil however, once
> in the stomach, turns on a massive release of the hormone that
> makes the gull and bile ducts contract. You get a MAJOR spasm
> from these organs from a massive dose of the hormone. This spasm
> can be felt in some people during the flush. I believe that this
> is not a good idea as the gull and common ducts will contract like
> they never have before, possibly causing some damage to some
> tissues. Getting a huge dose of any hormone will cause a severe
> reaction in the body that can be negative. The contractions spill
> out a large volume of bile into the small intestine to meet the
> fat and help you digest it.

You believe that this is not a good idea. How nice to know. You mention that you feel pain afterwards... yet neither I nor my wife does.

Have you ever watched an infant's head crown during birth? Personally, I think it's a pretty serious design flaw in the human body, but, hey, at least the body *can* stretch that much.

Also, I have to argue with your use of the word "huge". You're suggesting that we're dumping, oh, I dunno, liters of some hormone or something. The dose ain't all that huge.

> After doing the flush myself, my bowel movements had oil in them.
> This was obviously un-digested olive oil that made the entire trip
> through my gut. My first bowel movement produced only a few
> stones. They were the green ones about the size of a pea and they
> floated on the surface. My second produced many stones, 50 or
> more about the same size.



The guys at the lab got over being grossed out about feces years ago.


> How the stones are formed:

> When there is a lack of bile acids in bile, the cholesterol in the
> bile is no longer able to stay in a liquid state and it
> precipitates out into “gobs” of cholesterol. I believe that
> during the flush there is a significant loss of bile acids from
> the system. Remember, this is a recycling type of system from the
> ileum to the liver. If during the flush you do not re-absorb the
> bile acids through the intestinal wall, and you end up with a
> liver that produces new bile that is lacking sufficient bile acids
> to keep the cholesterol in the liver in its liquid state.
> Therefore, the cholesterol “gobs” form in the bile ducts in the
> liver and in the gull bladder. I believe that the bile acids are
> not re-absorbed by the ileum because the undigested oil coats the
> lining of the intestines preventing them from being re-absorbed
> properly in the system. Olive oil coats things very nicely and
> will coat the lining of the intestines making it impossible to
> absorb anything or much of anything in the gut. Thus you pass the
> bile acids beyond the ileum without re-absorption and this creates
> a deficiency of bile acids in this system, which depends on re-
> circulation [to] work properly.

This is an interesting hypothesis, but consider that in your scenario, the bile salts are needed *later on* to make new bile, and the gobbing to which you refer would be occurring in an already-purged liver (and an already flushed gall bladder), which no longer needs to push out more bile, since it already did so (remember, hours and hours pass before anyone eats anything else after the oil has been consumed). If the bile salts go unabsorbed, that's fine, but that merely means that the cholesterol gobs are now sitting in the liver, blocking up the works. The gobs you hypothesize aren't in the intestine to be forming stones. In fact, in this scenario, it is likely that the liver would be creating "bile" lacking both cholesterol (which is now gumming up the works since it can't go back into solution with the now very watery "bile") and the bile salts.

> The stones form overnight primarily in the liver and the ducts
> growing in size as the move along. They then dump into the
> intestine, as your liver naturally wants to get rid of them. They
> then show up 1-2 days later in your loose stools. It takes the
> system at least that long to build up enough bile acids again to
> keep the cholesterol in a liquid state which keeps the “gobs” of
> cholesterol from forming.

Again, your timing is way off here. First, my stones come out the following day, often before I've managed to eat anything else which would cause the "un-re-salted bile" or "cholesterol gobs" from being pushed out of the liver, let alone out of the liver and through the entire intestinal tract.

> So, the flush gets out real cholesterol stones, mostly stones that
> the flush itself has created due to a lack of bile acids in the
> system. This is why people constantly get out stones when doing
> the flush, because they are making them in the process. One post
> on this board was that someone has counted over 31,000 stones in
> 15 or so flushes. That is because they make them in the liver
> every time they do the flush. I’ll bet that folks that flush a
> lot lower their cholesterol due to elimination and not a lot of re-absorption.

I'm sorry, but even older texts describe the process of forming gall stones as requiring a long time. If you can show an instance of a genuine gall stone being formed in the space of a day, then your claim might have some merit, but you've got a long way to go with this one. Calcification (of gall stones) isn't an overnight process, last time I checked.

> Some simple facts are this, if the liver puts out up to 1 liter of
> bile in a day and if your liver was all stuffed up with stones,
> then you would have some serious major health problems

Like, say, massive allergies?

> and your liver would not last long with a backup like that.

You grossly underestimate the body's capacity to heal itself or to work around difficulties. How long does it take a smoker to destroy his lungs?

> You would most likely get acute symptoms in several days to weeks
> if your bile flow was blocked much at all. Case in point, a
> friend’s baby just had biliary artresis (where there is no flow of
> bile from the liver) and this baby was in ICU in just a few
> weeks. Her liver was green/black from bile backup and she was
> very sick.

No doubt. But the difference is the inability to release bile at all versus the difficulty associated with gradually reduced flow.

> One of the photos on this site shows a GREEN liver section with
> green stones lying in some ducts. This photo is of a severely
> diseased liver (so much so it turned green with bile pigments).
> These stones formed because the liver was not functioning properly
> and with a lack of bile acids, these stones showed up the in the
> diseased organ which is normal in this case.

The only green-looking organ I've seen here is a gall bladder with stones inside, with a lot of greenish, creamy bile still shown. Could you direct me to this one?

> People claim to have passed very large stones that were several
> inches. This is a physical impossibility.

Confucius say, man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man who is doing it.

> The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch them like that, you
> ARE going to feel a lot of pain. Just like an acute attack if one
> gets stuck in the gull opening. The ducts will stretch, but not
> that big.

Oh, really? You're making an assumption here, without ONE IOTA of evidence to back up your claim.

> If you are getting stones this large, they are created in the
> small intestine. How? Simple. The large dump of bile that is
> lacking in bile acids will precipitate large gobs of cholesterol
> in the intestine just like in the liver. The mixing itself of the
> bile with the contents of the stomach will dilute the bile acids
> and cause this to happen. It is impossible to pass a very large
> stone through those ducts! It’s like trying to jamb a basketball
> through your garden hose.

More like, I would think, a baby's head through a vaginal opening. Or, for a real treat, (IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH, DO NOT GO HERE!), you could go take a look at http://www.goatse.cx/ and see how wide a man's anus can be stretched apart.

> You would have severe pain just like in acute gull attacks.

Well, you would, unless there were some way to relax and stretch those tissues beforehand.

You then go on for a few minutes to give a lot of unsubstantiated opinion on various topics. That's all I have to say about them, so I've cut them from here.

> Now lets consider this, I believe that God created man and he has
> the blueprint of our bodies. He made the system to work a certain
> way and it does its job perfectly well in the average person. If
> the liver were to be blocked even to 50% flow, you would know it,
> as you would become ill really fast.

And now, for the piece de resistance, you presume to know God's will. You're batting 1000 today! Not only that, but you also assume that you would know that 50% blockage would some how "be known". How do you know this?

Then again, how much degeneration is necessary in the relevant motor control cells before a patient with amyotropic lateral sclerosis (i.e. Lou Gherig's disease) notices? It's more than 50%!

Then again, how much buildup do we need to have in our colon -- i.e. how much loss of function -- do we have to have before we "notice"?

Then again, if you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will jump out, but if you put him in cold water and slowly heat it up, he will cook before he realizes he should jump out...

See? You're acting as if this loss is instantaneous. If it were instantaneous, someone might notice. Instead it occurs gradually, and often times people don't even realize they're having issues until they stop having them.

> That is why stone blockage in the common duct requires immediate
> surgery. Because the blockage backs up the bile in the liver and
> the person becomes very sick in only a few days to weeks.

And those of us who have had stones in our ducts and managed to pass them without surgery are thrilled -- nay, elated -- to know your opinion.

You then go on to pontificate even further on your now clearly expert opinion, having done so much thinking on the topic, explaining how it just "can't be that way".

Again, thanks for your keen insights.

=-John-=

 

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