Re: The Living God speaks to His children directly. by Mighty.Sun.Tzu ..... Christianity Debate
Date: 8/18/2014 8:14:53 PM ( 8 years ago ago)
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T&N: No one has suggested placing the Bible above Christ and definitely not replace Him.
Ed: I said the bible idolater rejects God's living voice that speaks into the hearts of His children (some reject His Living Voice completely) and places the bible above this. In essence, such individuals attempt to replace living relationship with the Living God in two way communication with Him with merely reading about God in the bible while not personally meeting and knowing Him. Again, just as was true with the pharisees and this is the same recycled religion of man mistake repeated all throughout the centuries including 2000 years later. I'm not saying that the pharisees didn't believe they had living relationship with the Living God, they certainly did believe this. But they were deceived in this belief. Many people today who believe themselves followers of Lord Jesus make the same mistake and quench the Holy Spirit in the same way.
T&N: Just saying that when a person says something is from God the bible is the test for it.
Ed: If an individual has the Holy Spirit interpreting the bible for him or her, familiarity with the bible and checking what is heard against the concepts espoused therein is great, but unfortunately Holy Spirit interpretation is so often with so many not the case. If the bible is such an objective measure as you suppose... which makes it so obvious to all what Christians should agree upon like knowing that 2 + 2 = 4... why do you suppose there are 41,000 different denominations instead of only one? Why do you suppose there are centuries old debates continuing to rage between different seminary trained theologians as to what the bible is truly saying? All too often, the bible is interpreted by fleshy unregenerate minds, not by people filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit and living in this Spirit. This spiritually dead interpretation of the bible is how such Spirit quenching movements as Calvinism and MacArthurism have been birthed. Unfortunately wide is the road to destruction and many are fooled by these spiritually dead religion of man teachings which defy what we see in John 3 and Romans 8.
T&N: As well as John saying there would be no new revelation.
Ed: You interpret John in a spiritually dead religion of man way as saying "what i have written will become the final book of the canonized bible a couple hundred years from now, a bible which the majority of believers will never be able to read for at least 1500 years." "My vision was the final vision God will send to anybody, EVER, including myself, and there will be no new revelation to any believers whatsoever after this one that i had... and if anyone has any revelatory dreams or visions of their own, they must therefore discard them and repent of them lest they be cursed"... when really he was saying "don't add or subtract from this specific revelation i have given about this specific set of visions i had for this specific book (book of Revelation) that i, myself, am writing". In essence he was saying, "don't change the meaning of anything i have said here", not "don't keep having dreams and visions sent by the Lord, they have hereby been forbidden". When John was saying "in this book", how could he possibly have meant the bible when it hadn't even been compiled and canonized as yet into the 66 books we have today? There's certainly no indication in the bible itself that he knew that "book of revelation" would become part of this canonized bible or become the final book therein. Moses said something similar to this in Deut 4:2 where he said, "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." If we were to interpret the words of Moses as you have interpreted the words of John, then we would be forced to conclude that lots books written after these words of Moses many of which which became part of the bible were all apostate. Obviously, this is not what Moses was saying, just as it is obvious that John did not mean what you and others who would hope to quench the Holy Spirit in the lives of God's children today think he meant.
T&N: Does this mean God does not speak to us individually, of course not. But there will be nothing new revealed about himself that is not already in the bible.
Ed: This kind of thinking really attempts to place God in a box and is itself another aspect of bible idolotry. How do you reconcile your statement with John 21:25 (and other scriptures that speak of God's extraordinary vastness) where John says:
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself *would not contain the books that *would be written."
Doesn't this give you a clue that maybe there is more to an infinite, all powerful, all knowing God than an inch of paper and ink can possibly contain?
T&N: Sorry it is what the book says, weather we like it or not.
Ed: More accurately, it's your interpretation of what the book says, so you shouldn't try to play it off as if it's the obvious and only interpretation to which everybody has to hold.
T&N: You have promoted Bill Johnson's church "one of the most Spirit filled churches in the country" while saying in recent posts you do not agree with everything he says. So once again the man that you think is the pastor of one of the most spirit filled churches
denies the Deity of Christ,
Ed: Bill Johnson does not deny the deity of Christ and if he ever misrepresented himself on this point, he set it strait including here: "Jesus was (and is) God. Eternally God. That never changed. But He chose to live with self imposed restriction while living on earth in the flesh - as a man. In doing so He defeated sin, temptation, the powers of darkness as a man. We inherit His victory - it was for us. He never sinned!-Bill Johnson, Facebook 3/21/2011
T&N: His Church promotes the practices of necromancy and divination (witchcraft), while his wife promotes the use of new age concepts as Christianity.
Ed: Whenever i have seen such wild accusations from Spirit quenching individuals before, each time i have checked them out for myself, i have found an entirely different perspective. I'm sure you have endless accusations against different Spirit filled believers who are passionate for the Lord Jesus and i am not going to go down a bottomless rabbit hole to debunk all of your accusations. The bottom line is that bethel church is filled with passionate Spirit filled worshipers of the Lord Jesus who know that the gifts are for today and i believe this alone makes you uncomfortable and makes you eager to attempt to discredit them in any way you can.
T&N: This is why we need the Bible. To test these things.
Ed: Do you honestly think that bill johnson has not read the bible? Do you believe that what he says is not his interpretation of what the bible says? How much do you really know about him apart from the little blurbs you see on twitter singling out and attacking small bits and pieces of all the words he has written and spoken overall? Have you, for example, read any of his 15 or so books? Is it possible you just have incomplete information about him and then you like to use this limited information in an attempt to discredit anybody who has ever been within a hundred feet of him or liked anything he has ever said or who likes the passionate worship and passionate worshipers in the church he pastors? I would highly encourage you to take the planks out of your own eyes first, before you seek to help bill johnson with what you perceive to be his specks.
For starters, how passionately in love with Lord Jesus are you? Do you have deep intimate personal relationship with Him, filled to overflowing with His Spirit reflected in His tangible beautiful presence, or do you just know of Him from what you have read in a bible? Have you had a life transforming personal encounter with the Lamborghini and do you now drive it all throughout the day every day, or have you only read the manual? Searching, studying and memorizing your bible won't save you any more than the pharisees were saved by this, only truly being born again of the Holy Spirit will.
T&N: I am sure Hitler probably said something good in his life. I would not quote anything from him because he was a monster.
Same with Bill Johnson.
Ed: I would highly recommend that you examine your heart very carefully about this comparison you have just made and your accusation of bill johnson as being a monster and insinuating that he is like Hitler. It reminds me so much of how the pharisees misjudged Lord Jesus and accused him of being under the influence of satan, when in fact it was the blind pharisees themselves who were so influenced. If bill Johnson is a true servant of Lord Jesus and part of His bride which i believe him to be whether everything he has ever spoken is perfect or not, (true also of heidi baker, jenn johnson, kim walker, etc), then you will be judged by your words just as the pharisees will be. i would strongly encourage you to begin to see things through the Lord's eyes and repent of all evil.
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