CureZone   Log On   Join
 

need arguments for some of these, especially the comments by trapper/kcmo ..... Ask Trapper

Date:   5/19/2013 12:34:44 PM ( 11 y ago)
Hits:   5,741
URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2066853

0 of 0 (0%) readers agree with this message.  Hide votes     What is this?

Vaccines have changed the world, largely eradicating a series of terrible diseases, from smallpox to polio to diphtheria, and likely adding decades to most of our life spans. But despite the gains -- and numerous scientific studies indicating vaccine safety -- a growing movement of parents remains fearful of vaccines. And in some American communities, significant numbers of parents have been rejecting vaccines altogether, raising new concerns about the return of vaccine-preventable diseases like measles and whooping cough.

In The Vaccine War, FRONTLINE lays bare the science of vaccine safety and examines the increasingly bitter debate between the public health establishment and a formidable populist coalition of parents, celebrities, politicians and activists who are armed with the latest social media tools -- including Facebook, YouTube and Twitter -- and are determined to resist pressure from the medical and public health establishments to vaccinate, despite established scientific consensus about vaccine safety.

"Scientifically, I think the matter is settled," says Anders Hviid, an epidemiologist at the Statens Serum Institut in Denmark. In one of the largest and most comprehensive epidemiological studies available, Hviid and colleagues analyzed data on more than a half million children and found no link between the MMR "triple shot" for measles, mumps and rubella and an increased rate of autism -- a link that's been strongly asserted for years by anti-vaccine activists. Similar epidemiological studies in Denmark also failed to reveal a link between the mercury preservative thimerosal and autism. In fact, around the world, peer-reviewed epidemiological studies have found no link between autism and either the MMR shot or thimerosal.

But vaccine skeptics like celebrity Jenny McCarthy, whose son, Evan, was diagnosed with autism following a series of vaccinations, including MMR, are convinced that further study into the other 15 pediatric vaccines and their additives will ultimately reveal a link. "Something happened. And when I say something, I mean a behavior, a trigger," McCarthy tells FRONTLINE. "Is it mercury? Is it the schedule? Is there just too many? My answer to people and what I've been telling them is, 'It's all of the above.' We don't know for sure, which is why we keep saying, 'Study it.'"

Further vaccine safety research is what businessman J.B. Handley, who founded the autism support group Generation Rescue, has been calling for, too. Handley tells FRONTLINE he has little doubt that vaccines are responsible. "There is no real-world study that shows me that those six vaccines didn't cause my son's autism."

Nowhere has the vaccine war grown more heated than in Ashland, Ore. -- an area that FRONTLINE learns is of high concern to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. With an estimated quarter of the town's children entering kindergarten not fully immunized, Ashland is one of the least vaccinated places in America. Despite the best efforts of local pediatricians like Dr. Donna Bradshaw-Walters, many parents are simply not convinced that vaccines do more good than harm, and they've been using Oregon's religious and personal-belief exemption to get out of the state vaccine mandate. "I think a child's immune system is so immature," says Jennifer Margulis, an Ashland writer and mother of four who chooses vaccine exemption. "If you read the list of ingredients about what you're putting intramuscularly into your child, it's scary."

According to public health workers, however, Margulis' decision puts the entire community at risk. Vaccines don't work for everyone, and in some kids the effects wear off, so it's only when everyone -- or almost everyone -- is immunized that "herd immunity" is effective. "There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who cannot be vaccinated," says Dr. Paul Offit, the chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the inventor of a vaccine for rotavirus. "They're getting chemotherapy for their cancers, or they're getting immunosuppressive therapy. They depend on those around them to be vaccinated."

Bioethicist Art Caplan argues that society has the right to coerce its parents to vaccinate their children even if vaccines carry a small risk: "Parents don't have unlimited rights with respect to the welfare of their children. You can't kill them. You can't put them at risk of fatal disease. You can't put them at risk of devastating disability."

Surveys reveal that America's conversation about vaccines is complex, involving not only medical risks and benefits but also ideological beliefs about parental choice and the limits of government. "This is true even of individuals who see the benefits of vaccines as substantial," political scientist Hank Jenkins-Smith tells FRONTLINE. "They still want it to be a choice. They don't want it to be compulsory." Government control over individual choice is another factor fueling the anti-vaccine backlash, despite the peer-reviewed science that vaccines are safe.

"People now have a way to get the information they couldn't before, to communicate it to other people, and to have a robust public debate that is not controlled by money or political power or by government policy," says Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center. "Physicians are going to have to get over the idea that they tell people what to do, and people are going to do it without questioning."

× Comments for this thread are now closed.
  • draybuck 3 years ago
    •  

    I went into this with an open mind, but was shocked at how one-sided this hit-piece was. Where were the interviews with the numerous doctors that have contrary opinions? Turns out you omitted them, according to Dr. Jay Gordon's piece in The Huffington Post today. Shame on you. Keep it up, and your viewership will continue to decline like the rest of the mainstream media propaganda pushers.

    • Avatar
      R Schmid draybuck 3 years ago
      •  

      Frontline has been in my experience is one of the best and unbiased journalistic programs I have ever seen and I have enjoyed it for years. To say that they would be either bought our or intimidated to be biased by government or industry is plainly false, If anything a more viable argument could be made for the reverse.

      There is a bigger issue here and that is the very sad fact that a large number of parents as making decisions that may have far reaching health implications for their children and for the community as a whole. This based on anecdotal information completely ignoring the vast preponderance of scientifically verifiable evidence to the contrary.

      Those that may very well be hurt by this are unable to act on their own behalf. If an adult wants to do something stupid to endanger their health that's one thing is is entirely another matter to subject a child to whom they have a ethical and legal requirement to safeguard to such risks.

      Some parents did believe that there was a correlation between vaccinations and health problems with their children. In response to this the matter was thoroughly investigated by a large number of epidemiologists and the results published in peer reviewed journals using established scientific protocols the results showing conclusively the no causal relationships exist.

      Weighing the benefits and risks a strong case can be made for the legal requirement to vaccinate all children. I was deeply saddened to learn that the potential to eradicate polio has been lost due to such small minded thinking of some parents. Try explaining that to those in the world that still die or are crippled by this illness. All human specific illness that we have a 100% effective vaccine for could be could be wiped out. How many children are vaccinated for smallpox 0, how many children get smallpox 0, how many smallpox viruses exist out side of a laboratory in the world 0. Now there is a anti-vaccination argument I can get behind.

      • jodisullivan R Schmid 3 years ago
        •  

        I wish I would've been interviewed by Frontline and I would've given all the pro-vacciners something to CHEW ON. Contrary to Medical and Media propaganda there hasn't been a single significant disease, i.e. smallpox, polio etc..that have ever been cured by a vaccine. Smallpox was created by Jenner who wasn't even a Dr. by using cow pox as a cure for an entirely different virus, small pox. In 1853 the amount of deaths from smallpox was approx. 2,000 in England. After a mandatory vaccine program was enforced from 1853-1868 the smallpox deaths increased to 44,840! Prussia implemented a MANDATORY smallpox vaccine program in 1834. 100% of the population was vaccinated. What happened? 35 yrs later 1 million cases of smallpox broke out and 124,978 DIED as a result followng 35 yrs of mandatory smallpox vaccines. Boy was that a success! In 1917, there was alot of left over smallpox vaccine on the shelves, so after WW1 our govt. decided to mandate 25 million shot to the Filipinos. 163,000 came down with smallpox post innoculation and 75,339 died. This quadrupled the death rate due to smallpox prior to vaccination. Another great success! You may ask why I'm focusing on the true stats of the smallpox vaccine programs? I think it is vital to show reality when it comes to what history has really taught us with regards to the success of what the medical/CDC/Big Pharma continue to reference as the vaccine that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a vaccine was responsible for curing a disease. What a joke! diseases will continue to thrive in areas where there is dirty water, unsafe food handling & poor sanitation systems. TRUE HISTORY never lies. Unfortunately, the mass herd of sheeple will continue to get their info and make their choices to vaccinate from false prophets, like Dr. Profit, mass media and the like. I could go on for days proving mass/recent outbreaks within vaccinated communities for all sorts of vaccine cured diseases...but I have a healthy, unvaccinated family to attend to. Cheers!

        • Avatar
          Minna jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          It is frustrating to read this post - the Internet is certainly an unfortunate equalizer in that it provides a platform for any and all. I could go on for days making up numbers to "prove" my case, but I have a healthy, vaccinated family to attend to. :)

          • jodisullivan Minna 3 years ago
            •  

            Minna, I'm all ears...please forward me just a few of your numbers. Why is it that the U.S. ranks 17th worldwide for longevity? Since we receive the most vaccinations and these "miracles" are supposedly keeping us safe from the scourge of disease, why aren't we ranked #1? Another thing you may be able to help me with...if the vaccine manufacturers state that the booster is only good for a year or so, where are the studies that show the last booster shot a child receives offers lifetime immunity? I have so many questions, that it seems like you might be able to help me with. I have 4 yr old triplets, and I still found the time to get back to you with some intelligent queries. I'm waiting....

        • Avatar
          Minna jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Longevity? Are you talking lifespan? If that's the case, our relatively low rank has to do with things like poor diet, obesity and heart dz. French fries, cheeseburgers, the golden arches bordering our nation's freeways. More driving, less excercise, etc, etc.

          I took a look at your links, by the way (Dr. Hadwen, O'Shea, et al.). I wonder how many studies Dr. O'Shea has conducted regarding vaccinations and autism. Probably none. What business a chiropractor has publishing a book like this (and subsequently lininng his pockets with the money you spent buying it, by the way) is beyond me.

          I'm not saying you should walk into a medical office and blindly accept any treatment presented. Certainly gather information and come to an intelligent understanding about the nature of the disease and why we want to avoid transmitting particular diseases to others. The question here, however, is: are vaccinations causing autism? Answer: no. Would we be worse off without vaccinations? Answer: Yes. We can certainly raise a new question: Are there people out there who profit from fearmongering? Absolutely, yes.

          I mean no disrespect, but these sources are just not impressive. Fearmongering is not science. Fearmongering does not bring us closer to an understanding of autism. It is a distraction. And sadly, it probably will not end until we have more and more outbreaks of preventable - and I stress the word "preventable" - disease!

          Keep those germy, unvaccinated kids away from my vulnerable infant! Please.

        • Avatar
          Ked jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Get your facts straight, jodisullivan. No one in the know ever says vaccines "cure" anything. Prevention is the word...vaccines PREVENT you from developing a disease by teaching your immune system what the germ looks like BEFORE you get it.

          • jodisullivan Ked 3 years ago
            •  

            Ked, I only said, "cured" to emphasize the pro-vaccine pushers constant reference that vaccines eradicted smallpox and polio. Let's not mince words...My facts are backed by science and can be sourced that vaccines have caused far more damage and death than they have ever helped our immune systems to figure out anything. My immune system and children's immune systems will be far stronger and superior to your polluted, chemical laden, waste land. The only outbreaks happening on a large scale are those of confirmed vaccinated communities..but you won't hear much about that on Fox News, dig a little further my friend.

        • LBRB_Sullivan jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          you are leaving out very important facts--

          whenever a "mandatory" vaccine program has been put in place it breeds vaccine rejection. When the UK implemented "mandatory" vaccines, people rebelled against the idea. The error you make is in saying "enforced". They attempted to enforce the mandatory vaccine program but failed.

          The small pox outbreaks were caused by and mostly killed those who refused the vaccine. Take a look at the anti-vaccine propaganda of that day. In some ways it looks ridiculous (as in, the vaccine will cause you to turn into a cow....seriously, that was the claim). In many ways, it is the same as what we see today.

          The idea that Jenner created smallpox is an amazingly incorrect statement--much like the antivaccine propaganda of the 1800's which led to the very outbreaks you cite.

          • jodisullivan LBRB_Sullivan 3 years ago
            •  

            1834, Prussian begins mandatory smallpox vaccine program. Every newborn is vaccinated. Every child is vaccinated again upon entering school. Every male is vaccinated before entering the military. All males entered the military in Prussia. Anyone refusing the vaccinations were held down and forced to receive as many as 10 jabs in the arm. After 35 yrs of MANDATORY vaccines there was an outbreak of 1 MILLION cases of smallpox reported, with 124,978 deaths resulting. Source: www.whale.to/v/hadwen.html Jan. 25, 1896

        • Avatar
          JMG jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Interesting, but one wonders where your numbers are coming from, not least in light of the fact that smallpox has been eradicated since the 1970s. Of course, no vaccine "cures" any infection, but rather benignly exposes the immune system to an infectious agent, so that when that virus or bacterium does happen by it's blocked by a rapid immune response. Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

          • jodisullivan JMG 3 years ago
            •  

            1834 Prussia sources: www.whale.to/v/hadwen.html Jan. 25 1896 & Sinclair, I Vaccination: the hidden facts 1853 England compulsory vaccination program sources: (McBean pg 13,) The Poison Needle Mokelumne Hill 1993. WWI Philippines sources: (Anderson pg 69, W.H.Hay, also James pg 410,) Anderson HB The Facts Against Compulsory Immunization Hay, W.H. MD Address to Congress on the Lemky Bill Jun. 25, 1937 James, W. Immunizations: The Reality Behind the Myth Bergin & Garvey 1995. There are your sources, dig em up, chew on them, educate yourself beyond Dancing w. Stars.

        • jcka jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Where on earth are you getting these figures from? The only websites I could see are those without any sort of references.

        • lexsmom jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Who ever said that vaccines were made to CURE diseases? Sounds like a pretty neat deal to me! What are those vaccinations that CURE what? You have got my attention!
          You may have a point about dirty water, etc to an extent, but are you telling everyone that FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt) drank dirty water and what not? If everyone were to stop vaccinations altogether, mark my words that these DANGEROUS, LIFE- THREATENING DISEASES WILL MAKE A COMEBACK.
          I would much rather have my daughter the way she is: bright, beautiful, on the autism spectrum, but most of all: healthy and ALIVE! Does it bring you comfort to think about your future generations struggling with polio, measles, etc and that you helped encourage?
          In closing, I'd be very interested in the link or source of your information. I am a college student that is about to write a paper on this very subject and would appreciate learning more about what you had stated.

          • jodisullivan lexsmom 3 years ago
            •  

            FDR contracted polio after taking the live/oral polio vaccine. Bet you didn't get that slice of history based on your comment. I'm glad to hear that you are in college, which means you can read. Try reading Dr. Tim O'Shea's "The Sanctity of Human Blood, Vaccination i$ NOT Immunization, 13th edition." If you want to contact me back after reading, I'd be glad to discuss further!

        • Avatar
          Melgarejo Rodrigo jodisullivan a year ago
          •  

          where did you get that FDR contracted Polio from a polio vaccine? He contracted Polio in 1921. Polio was first tested in 1952 by Jonas Salk who had help and funding by FDR.

        • feskone jodisullivan 3 years ago
          •  

          Thanks jodisullivan! But it looks like pro-vacciners are reading these stats from the different perspective: though the paradigm of their blind faith in authority.

        • Avatar
          Mslissakc jodisullivan a year ago
          •  

          Re: "there hasn't been a single significant disease...cured by a vaccine". Vaccines don't "cure" disease, and were never sold as a cure. They PREVENT them. Well, they do when people use them. (Note: there is no way to "cure" a viral infection, just manage the symptoms and PREVENT).

      • sjbeavers R Schmid 3 years ago
        •  

        All I have to say is, that if vaccines are safe it should be real easy to take the flu vaccine for example and look at people in nursing homes and see if it actually prevents the elderly from passing away due to the flu or complications from the flu now as opposed to twenty years ago when vaccine compliance was far less. I have seen one such study a couple of years ago while in graduate school and there were no change in death rates due to the flu, compairing a vaccination rate of about 15% approximately 20 years ago and 70-80% currently. I beleive it was done on people above the age of 75. I am not a virologist or immunoligist but if the death rates are about the same then it seem to not be as effective as the experts say.

      • Avatar
        Chicago R Schmid 3 years ago
        •  

        Please provide a link to any "published, peer reviewed scientific study" that shows 100% effectiveness for any vaccine.

        • Avatar
          Frustrated Scientist Chicago 3 years ago
          •  

          Well, Chicago,
          You bring up a good point! Vaccines are not 100% effective. Which is why as many people as can be immunized, need to be immunized. In order to protect the small number of people for whom the vaccine is not effective, we have to reduce the potential vectors of transmission by immunizing everyone else. Thus, when a group of parents decide to NOT immunize their children for Whooping Cough, they are NOT just risking their child's health, they are risking the health of any child around them for whom the vaccine wasn't effective. So, this is not just an issue of parental rights because the action of parents who do not immunize can affect the children of people who do immunize. I do not think that that result is fair to those of us who immunize.

        • Avatar
          SSA Chicago 3 years ago
          •  

          So smallpox wasn't eliminated? It seemed to be 100% effective at eliminating smallpox.

          A better question, which the anti-vax crowd seems to avoid is where are all the studies linking vaccines to serious illness? They say vaccines went up and so has autism and therefore presume that vaccines cause autism. Frontline mentioned the numerous studies into whether there was any relationship between vaccines and autism and the data suggests no relationship between whether a child got the vaccine or not into whether they got autism. Save for the widely discredited Wakefield study in Lancet the anti-vax crowd can't seem to point to an even remotely scientific claim that vaccines cause autism.

          We should be concerned with trying to make vaccines as safe as possible, but I am not seeing the much compelling evidence in the anti-vax crowd.

      • Avatar
        Dana R Schmid 3 years ago
        •  

        You don't know a THING about this subject! You wanna know how I know???

        "the vast preponderance of scientifically verifiable evidence to the contrary."

        Because if I waited a month, you wouldn't be able to offer even one link to one double-blind, placebo-controlled study --- much less "vast preponderance". You don't even realize that you've been listening to liars do you? Instead of spreading the lies, how about some proof that those studies exist...JUST ONE - find it and link to it!

        When you can't - THEN will you please realize that you've been helping to spread the lies? THEN will you begin to read the FACTS?

      • Avatar
        Dana R Schmid 3 years ago
        •  
    • trrll draybuck 3 years ago
      •  

      As scientist who has done research in the area of autism, it was good to see a show that, while not disrespecting the fears of some parents, accurately reflected the current science, and did not feel the need to give equal time to the small minority of cranks and quacks who blame vaccination, and who have both increased the risks of vaccine-preventable disease and diverted funding from more productive approaches to the causes and treatment of autism.

      • mlapointemillar trrll 3 years ago
        •  

        As a parent of two (now adult) children on the autism spectrum, with inumerable other physiological,neurological,learning etc., problems, I find it utterly infuriating to see comments such as trrll's that are reductionist in the extreme. It is called a Spectrum for a reason! We would have to go on 'seizure' watch everytime my son got a vaccine. My daughter would always feel sick for days or weeks. As it turns out, we are all sensitive to chemicals, foods (gluten for example) and react much more stongly to chemicals that are toxic than other people do. We are the "canaries in the mines" - for those of you unfamiliar with the term, the little canary that was brought down in the mines would die a long time before the humans could figure out that there was dangerous gas leaving them time (hopefully) to get out, unless they called the canary a faker. So many people are paying no attention to us - the canaries, Mother Nature's warning system. Denial is SUCH an IN thing, that we may well deny ourselves into extinction or destroy society through sickness and disability of the majority of the population. In fact it would take much less than that to bring our 'civilized' world back to the stone age. Imagine not enough well people to drive trucks... no food, no essentials... not enough medical staff in hospitals to treat the one in two of us who will get cancer or.... or a quarter of our population suffering from autistic, neurological problems and not just in one country, but all countries. eg. the Monsanto nightmare in India, where a whole area of the vast country was essentially destroyed because they planted RoundupReady cotton instead of the seeds that have been developed in their families for centuries. Farmers are killing themselves by the hundreds (thousands now) by ingesting the chemicals that they were forced to buy, after their crops were so poor that they all were bankrupted.
        It is SO easy to make a statement about quacks and frauds, but to me the people who put all the 'additives' (read poisons) in the 36 shots that babies get in their first months and years of life, are simply, greedy murders. Does that trump your 'quacks and cranks'??

        • asodee mlapointemillar 3 years ago
          •  

          Nope, no amount of "I just know", anecdote, corelation, theories or conspiracies trump facts. The facts are that there is no link between vaccines and autism. Vaccines are not filled with 'toxins'.

        • Catherine Wood mlapointemillar a year ago
          •  

          Actually ASODEE mercury is a known toxin. Read the warning label on a compact fluorescent light bulb. Break it and your house turns into a damn haz mat zone that says you should get your family out of the area ASAP so they do not inhale the mercury. Have an old mercury thermometer? You have to call the feds to dispose of it legally.  Pregnant? The feds recommend that you don't eat too much tuna because it is a slow growing fish that has high mercury levels. The slower growing fish spend more time in the oceans ingesting mercury. You expect us to trust the CDC when we all know the CDC is controlled by the feds. FYI, the CDC has been ordered by the current administration to no longer release statistics relating to abortion. Heaven forbid we should get statistics from anyone other than the Guttmacher Institute which is owned and fed stats by Planned Parenthood. 
          My son was the most docile and complacent baby I'd ever seen and suddenly within 30 minutes of getting an MMR vaccine he spiked a fever of 108 and within days turned into a child I could barely keep up with.  
          Don't screw with mothers. We KNOW our children and we know when their behavior changes and we know what caused it. 

      • meMyselfIAndFamily trrll 3 years ago
        •  

        I think as a "scientist" you are willing to dismiss actual side effects, autism or other side effects
        as "just in your head" instead of real side effects of vaccines. You think we should
        have an open mind. How about you the"scientist" having an open mind
        and realizing devistating effects of vaccines and drugs do happen. If you scientists were more
        honest we might be able to have honest, meaningful dialog. But, since you choose to
        ignore people, we will continue to distrust you and opt out. Combining vaccines
        only weakens immune systems and reek more havok. Lots of dr's and scientist say there are no side effects
        but we all know that bs. Overvacination is making big phatma rich and us sick.
        I opt out!

        • Avatar
          Al meMyselfIAndFamily 3 years ago
          •  

          Oh give me a break! Every time you get into an airplane you trust a scientist; get in a car; push a button; get and MRI; operate a machine; go to war, etc you trust a scientist. There aren't "you scientists" and other scientists, there are only men & women who run tests and experiments to determine through scientific means what works & what doesn't.
          But there are people who look at coincidences, hear gossip, observe a single incidence and rush to conclusions. Science won't change the minds of people like that because they believe they are right: no global warming, no evolution, vaccines are bad, no round earth, --- you believe you are right because you want to blame your child's condition on something, anything. And I would also!

        • Avatar
          Josh meMyselfIAndFamily 3 years ago
          •  

          Scientists aren't honest? Most scientists enter a career into medicine in the hope of helping humanity as a whole verse personal achievement. As an engineer one of the first classes I took in my Masters program was Design of Experiments. The very first thing my professor said to us is no matter the data or what response is generated from the magnitude of underlying variables, Causation does not mean correlation! Your trying to find an answer that isn't simply there. most of the problems these people fear the vaccines are causing happen around the time symptoms develop and show. And its amazing to me that you can look at the one ore two examples, (The Exception) and not see yet even try to realize how many lives these vaccines have saved around the world as a whole. And just to let you know medical experts unlike you do have an open mind. They have to look at all aspects to what is causing a problem. It is through testing the entire spectrum that you can narrow down what is the root cause of the problem. Whether it be a disease or some other elemental decision, you cannot blame an illness such as autism on something like vaccines due to the dismal correlation between them. Your putting your beliefs in a pseudo-scientifical quest guided by miss understanding and glam by celebrities who don't want to believe in the evidence presented and what is actually proven. Oh yeah. Who cares if these people who make the vaccines are rich. If you created something with the magnitude of curing diseases wouldn't you want to make something off it? It's not like its a price war on who is going to pay the most for it.

      • Avatar
        IsCoolMom trrll 3 years ago
        •  

        While I agree with your comment on the need to focus funding on productive treatments and causal links, I do think it was unfortunate that other views, not as polarized pro / con vaccine, were not at least introduced for future discussion.

        Serious science-minded doctors worry about the combination of possible genetic predisposition combined with the onslaught of documented environmental toxins as well as the bombardment of radio waves, etc., in our accelerated environment today. These open questions needed to be presented as unresolved, and left for the viewer to incorporate into their own opinions. And PBS had access to these ideas in their interview with Dr. Jay Gordon, which was not included in the final cut.

        I don't think PBS was trying to push one point of view, but I have to agree, leaving the other voices out makes the debate appear very "us vs. them," favoring the "rational, public-health-minded" side. That's unfortunate - this was an opportunity to foster more nuanced debate beyond the desperate shouting of sadly afflicted families.

      • Avatar
        Susan trrll 3 years ago
        •  

        "cranks and quacks" ?

        I cannot believe how "science" types--researches and physicians like to resort to name calling about people with a different yet valid point of view. That is not scientific, is it? Its not even logical. And it calls into question everything such a person does. Can we really trust someone who claims to use science as their guide, when they cannot even evaluate such a complex subject without saying "And you're ugly too!". Thank god public policy is not determined by "science guys" such as yourself. This is not a black and white issue. This is complex on many levels. There is no right or wrong in such a case, there are only individual rights that must be protected. I will protect my right to NOT be injected with toxic waste. And if you let me, I will protect you and your children from being injected with toxic waste as well, by demanding a safer, saner way of protecting people from disease. Go back to your drawing board, science guy...you can do better than this.

        • Avatar
          Frustrated Scientist Susan 3 years ago
          •  

          trrll's unfortunate choice of words simply demonstrates and he (or she) is human and very frustrated with the lack of understanding of statistics and the scientific method that many anti-vaccine groups display. It may lower his (or her) credibility, BUT so does calling vaccines "toxic waste". Susan, you have no credibility with me for using those words. There is a risk with every medicine you inject or ingest. But you know what, there is a risk of death or severe injury every time you ride or drive in a car also--and to do what--just to get somewhere in a timely fashion. We assume risks everyday. What I object to is that people who do not get immunized are putting my family and I at risk--what happened to MY right to be protected from disease? I immunize my family to protect them AND the public. But the the full protection can only work if every one who can be immunized, is immunized. The benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks of vaccines. It is your civic duty to immunize.

        • Avatar
          Noclevername Susan 3 years ago
          •  

          It is actually a black-and-white issue. Vaccines don't cause autism. End of story.

          For an interesting take on this issue and where this myth arose from, you might want to check out a book called "Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver" by Arthur Allen. As you might imagine, it's very pro-vaccine, but it acknowledges past mistakes that the medical establishment has made and why this has made some people very leery of vaccines in general.

    • Cory Albrecht draybuck 3 years ago
      •  

      When the studies show, over and over and over and over and over again that those contrary doctors like Jay Gordon are wrong, do their opinions really need to be given air time in some misguided post-modern attempt at "fairness"? Giving the pseudo-science and anti-science crowds face time in the debate only gives them a false legitimacy they do not deserve to have.

      if a national geographic show didn't give eqeal time to the Flat Earth Society, would you call NatGeo biased and one-sided?

      • Avatar
        Shawn Cory Albrecht 3 years ago
        •  

        Okay, Corey, let's take one position paper. In the 80's, when thimerosal use was still on the rise, it was estimated that 6-month old kids were getting many, many times the EPA's acceptable amount of mercury. So, the FDA studied it and in 1988 issued a paper titled, "An Assessment of Thimerosal in Childhood Vaccines". Their conclusion? They said that if you took all the mercury a baby received in those first 6 months and divided by 180, then the daily average wasn't much over the EPA allowable daily intake, so there was no danger! That is, of course, preposterous; it's like saying, here, take 6 months worth of your heart medication now, and don't take any more for 6 months, and you'll have no problem. We don't have to be scientists to see the almost insane flaw in that proposition. To add insult to injury, the American Academy of Pediatrics concurred!

        What else is necessary? What I just described actually happened; the body responsible for oversight of the safety of ingredients in vaccines given to our children, lied to us; there is no other way to interpret it, it's such an egregious, nonscientific statement. And then an ostensibly proud body of medical professionals concurred! This is not science; it is an agenda-driven vaccination paradigm. The Danish and other studies later used by the FDA and IOM to debunk the mercury/autism link, as mentioned in the PBS special, have the same type of fatal flaws. Do a little bit of research, then spread the word.

        • asodee Shawn 3 years ago
          •  

          @Shawn
          Who estimated that 6 month old kids were getting many times the acceptable amount of mercury?
          Your breakdown of the paper's (An assessment of Thimerosal in Childhood Vaccines) is overly simplistic.

          But all that, really, is moot now as child vaccines no longer contain thimerosal with the exception of influenza vaccines (which can be ordered without if a parent is willing to pay the fee). And interestingly enough the autism ratio has not decreased for the children that were vaccinated without thimerosal.

          I concur with your statement of 'do a little research' but to first learn the basics of using logic, thinking critically, checking sources etc.
          Reading whaleto and huffpost and calling that research... well that may be what this problem stemmed from.

      • nidoog Cory Albrecht 3 years ago
        •  

        Amen, Brudda.

    • Avatar
      kinderdoc draybuck 3 years ago
      •  

      The reason that there were no doctors with contrary opinions is that there are few or no reputable doctors who have them!

      • Avatar
        PropagandaBroadcastingSystem kinderdoc 3 years ago
        •  

        There are plenty of researchers who have qualms about vaccines. Nobel prize winning ones. Doctors just do what they are told in medical school; its not like they test the drugs they hand out themselves. If you want contrary scientific voices read Janine Robert's excellent Fear of the Unknown. She is the journalist who broke the blood diamond story.

        Or we can all be lazy and bash Jenny McCarthy as if she's the sole authority. She's the only one that is interviewed on this subject because she's easy to discredit because people are jealous of her looks or whatever.

        • Avatar
          Skeptic PropagandaBroadcastingSystem 3 years ago
          •  

          Why don't you name some of them? It's easy to make outrageous claims on the internet where no one will question your motives, bias, or even the actual validity of your statement. Why don't you name these "Nobel Prize Winning Researchers"? Science is not as petty as to "discredit people" based on being "jealous of her looks or whatever".

        • Avatar
          old guy PropagandaBroadcastingSystem 3 years ago
          •  

          A journalist is a credible scientific voice but people who have worked in the laboratory or the clinic and studied for years are dismissed? If there are plenty of researchers with qualms why not name a few. What about some people having children or parents who are in vunerable populations for lethal diseases and who lose their loved ones when the outbreaks of disease occur for lack of vacinnation, do you suppose they might go out hunting for the zealots shouting arrogantly their windy ignorance full of self importance?

    • Avatar
      FloridaGramps draybuck 3 years ago
      •  

      As the lovely tapdance rolled out....I happened to realize.....Merck, Smith Kline etc....are most likely very generous corporations that make huge donations to PBS....and for some mysterious reason where not even mentioned. What about the labs grinding out these toxins? What are they doing about it....other than making billions of dollars?
      Why are these shots grouped together? And the big one you folks did not answer....what was the reason for the reactions to the MMR shot? This is an important subject....and you folks just glossed it over....and basically said......give those kiddies the needle.


 

<< Return to the standard message view

fetched in 0.05 sec, referred by http://www.curezone.org/forums/fmp.asp?i=2066853