"What I disagree with are the passing quarter to baseball size "stones" or amounts of stones that would occupy the entire chest and abdominal cavity claims."
When you research the actual original case report of this flushers results, you will find it clearly stated that it is a WAD of stones adding up to the volume of a softball and not a singular softball sized stone:
"When I awoke the morning after doing the first liver flush I felt absolutely great. but at first I could not imagine how the flush could have caused that great super feeling to occur. Later it was realized those stones WERE already out of my liver and gallbladder. But it was not realized then because no stones had yet been seen to leave the body.
Laterthe massive WAD of stones seen in the toilet when mine came out (on the second trip to the throne) was the size of a regulation SOFTBALL. After that I quickly began feeling MUCH MUCH better and my vision actually improved a lot!
That is stoneS, plural, and this has happened to many flushers including myself where it was clearly evident that the wadded up stones were comprised of many smaller stones.
First of all I said baseball sized, which is already larger than the gallbladder. You are saying softball size, which is considerably larger proving the claim is bogus.
Secondly, this is not the post I am referring to. I never saw that post before now.
"or amounts of stones that would occupy the entire chest and abdominal cavity claims."
No one ever claimed to release a volume of stones this large. This was from your faulty mathematics and inability to compute dimensional volume:
"Now we have according to your ridiculous claims 49 inches of flat "stones" apparently. Since we know that they are not flat we will have to calculate based on assumed sizes. Now normally a real stone would have nearly the same length as height and width. But to make you look less foolish let's assume the height and width is only half the length. This would give us a total volume of 29,412.25 cubic inches.(HAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!! Try not to die laughing!!!!) So you are trying to claim that 29,412.25 cubic inches of real gallstones can fit in to a gallbladder with a capacity of only 4 cubic inches!!!!
Actually, you used faulty math even changing some defintions, which can read in those posts.
But let's say for fun that your math was correct. So you have 90.8 cubic centimeters of stones. And how much is 90.8 centimeters in inches? It is 35.7 inches. You used an equation for oblong shapes giving a lower total volume. I calculated 49 inches, which is not that far off from your calculation. Still if we go based on your calculations even though they are low they still prove my point. Since gallstones form so slowly and he did all the flushes in something like a week then all the stones would have had to be present to begin with. So you are therefore stating that this person had 90.8 cubic centimeters or 35.7 cubic inches of stones supposedly fitting inside a gallbladder with a total volume of 4 cubic inches.
And as I pointed out this volume would not only exceed the entire abdominal cavity, but also the entire chest cavity and then some. Where was the space for all his internal organs other than the gallbladder? In other words, you just proved that they were not real gallstones.
Okay, so please permanently lay these two arguments to rest. I have satisfactorily disproven that anyone has even claimed to release a softball sized stone or a total volume equating to their chest cavity. These were from your misinterpretation.
Actually I just proved my case once again.
And you still have not satisfactorily challenged my 19 arguments demonstrating the reality of the liver flush stones:
Been there, done that.
"There is an overwhelming case for the intrahepatic reality of liver flush stones as well as an enormous body of anecdotal evidence on this site's archives.
1) Calcified stones released in conjunction with soft stones:
The idea that liver flush stones are somehow a product of the flush itself very quickly falls apart when you consider the occurrence of stones with a calcified shell being released in conjunction with the regular stones. When cut in half these stones are jade green. Andreas Moris's wife instantly cured her acute back pain after releasing 100 of these such stones.
Real gallstones are calcified, not just a calcified shell. So these are not gallstones.
2) Flukes and other liver parasites
Oftentimes the stones are passed in conjunction with liver flukes and other parasites of intrahepatic origin, like in my case stones covered in mycelial candida.
Not one "liver flusher has ever provided proof to this. Liver stones, which are extremely rare are caused by parasites, but are endemic primarily to Eastern Asia.
The claim of Candida mycelia in the liver is even more ridiculous since Candida is not normally found in the liver. If it did make it to the liver then this would mean it is likely systemic, which is more rare than liver stones and the person would likely die shortly unless professional treatment is given.
3) Stones cease being released when flushing is complete and cure is attained
Stones cease being released after the flushing is complete, accompanied with a cessation of symptoms associated with intrahepatic stones.
4) Some flushes produce no stones; while many have reported releasing stones without flushing at all
Fecal soaps and sterol-cholesterol complexes are commonly formed in diet. Its just most people have no desire to go picking through their feces to find them.
5) Stone size and distribution strongly correlate to biliary duct size and distribution
The size and amount of the liver stones released are strongly correlated to the diameter range and ratio of the biliary duct network. There are innumerable tiny stones often the size of a grain of sand released, with increasingly fewer quantities the larger the stone is, tapering off to about 1cm, the diameter of the common bile duct.
This one is easy to disprove. Simply look at pictures of the blobs people have passed that were psoted here. The maximum dilation for stone passage is 8mm and a penny is 20mm for reference:
6) Progression of flushing and intermittent cessation of biliary flow
There is a progression to flushing, with improved digestion and cessation of ailments for a brief period followed by a return of ailments and reduction in digestion as the deeper stones progress forward down the biliary ducts and once again occlude bile flow. More stones are released after 6 weeks after a flush than after 2 weeks
Again, liver stones are extremely rare. In addition, if bile was being blocked by an obstruction then the people would be having other symptoms, including pancreatitis.
7) Multiple colors of stones released simutaneously
There are varying colors of stones released at the same time despite passing nearly clear water due to the purging effects of the epsom salt, and consuming clear oil in the flush drink. Stones stored in the liver from different time periods and composed of different materials are released at the same time. There are also different colors of stones passed from flush to flush.
Color of the soap stones depend on what impurites get trapped in the their formation within the intestines. Same principle as how most gemstones are colored.
8) Immediate stone release
People, such as myself, have passed stones immediately after consuming the flush mixture, long before ANY flush mixture exits the stomach.
More proof that your claims are bogus. The contraction of the gallbladder is stimulated by the release of cholecystokinin (CCK). The release of CCK is stimulated by the release of fats/oils in to the intestines. You need to learn how the body works.
9)Preliminary stone release
People have passed stones on the eve of the flush before taking any mixture.
And again, fecal soaps and sterol-cholesterol complexes are formed all the time by the diet. Most people are not odd enough though to have a hobby of picking through their feces to find them. But these can still come out as a result of earlier meals.
10) People have passed stones during the apple juice preparation phase.
Apple juice is high in sterols that bind cholesterol forming the sterol-cholesterol complexes that people can mistake for real gallstones.
11) People have passed stones from coffee enemas.
The coffee is a laxative so it can stimulate the release of soap stones formed from an earlier meal. Coffee also contains sterols.
12) People have passed stones from eating several avocados.
Contains saponifiable fats and sterols to form soap stones and sterol-cholesterol complexes.
13) People have passed stones from drinking carrot juice after prolonged water fasts.
Carrot juice will not stimulate CCK to contract the gallbladder, but is rich in sterols. So you just proved once again that what is being passed are not real gallstones.
14) Insufficient Time of passage
The time of passage through the gastrointestinal tract is insufficient for saponification and formation of stones due to the laxative effect of epsom salt. Contractions of the gallbladder are felt just minutes prior to releasing the stones.
More evidence of your bogus evidence. Once again, in order to contract the gallbladder you require CCK, which is stimulated by the release of fats/oils in to the intestine. It takes more than a few minutes for this to occur. In fact, high fat consumption slows gastric emptying time.
15) Stones made of smaller stones
Some stones are clearly observed to be comprised of smaller stones that have clumped together over time, correlating to the formation of intrahepatic stones where smaller stones from the smaller biliary ducts clump together with other smaller stones as the ducts merge together into a larger duct
Again, intrahepatic stones are very rare. Real gallstones can clump together, but do this in the gallbladder. The soap stones the "liver flushers" are passing can also clump in the intestines where they are formed.
16) Some tubular formations are released with hollow centers resembling the tubular shape of biliary ducts.
Any proof of this wild claim?
17) There are direct physical sensations of stones leaving the liver and gallbladder and traveling down the intestines
Obviously you know nothing about human anatomy and physiology. But since you claim that carrot, apple juice or nothing at all can release stones then why doesn't everyone feel these sensations?
18) Upon releasing stones, there is permanently more room to breathe, and more room for the stomach to expand and comfortably hold more food.
That one is especially funny since even a full gallbladder does not compress the lungs or stomach to cause problems.
19) Complete cure accompanies cessation of stone release
Completely flushing the liver until no more stones are released is directly and strongly correlated to the cessation of longstanding symptoms associated with intrahepatic stones
Again, intrahepatic stones are extremely rare and primarily seen in Eastern Asia. Where do you live Michael?
Considering all the above, it should be overwhelmingly evident to any reasonably thinking individual that the origin of the liver flush stones is indeed intrahepatic
Not to anyone who understands real human anatomy and physiology. Or that has actually researched liver stones.
Now consider some of the counter arguments from the proponents of the fecal soap cult: "Fecal dye" accounting for the various colors of the stones (what about passing only clear water prior to passing stones?)
Again you are trying to mislead people. I was referring to the fact that when people put dye in the olive oil first the soap stones were speckled inside with the dye that never reaches the gallbladder or liver. This proves beyond any reasonable doubt the these so-called "stones" were formed in the intestines from saponification.
,"Undigested cellulose" accounting for tubular waxy formations with a hollow center (once again, what about the fast beforehand and the absence of intestinal debris?), "calcium oxalates from the carrot juice" accounting for calcified stones (this one has got to be the most ridiculous. Does anyone really believe that calcium from carrot juice can coat a liver stone with a hard white shell in the 20 seconds it takes to exit the intestines?).
I have never seen anyone claim this. But real gallstones do not have a calcified shell. They are calcified throughout. So again, you are providing evidence that these are not real gallstones.
The origin of the liver flush stones is indeed intrahepatic.
Once again this is not true as the overwhelming evidence has shown.
If you would like to create another user account to carry this discussion over to the Liver Flush Debate forum, I would be more than happy to address your counter arguements there.
If you could act like an adult I would say yes. But your recent posts prove that this is not possible for you to do. Besides, your "evidence" has already proven that those blobs are not real gallstones and definitely not liver stones.