Date:   12/15/2009 3:04:27 PM ( 15 y ago)
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URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1539929

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I am reminded of a debate that happened several centuries ago:

The Pope decreed that all the Jews had to convert or leave Italy.  There was a huge outcry from the Jewish community, To the jews of Rome, this was a great tragedy, for they knew no refuge where they might not expect worse treatment than in Rome. They appealed to the Pope for reconsideration, and the Pope, a fair-minded man, suggested a sporting proposition. If the Jews would appoint one of their own member to engage in a debate with him in pantomime, and if the Jewish representative were to win the debate, the Jews might be able to remain.

The Jewish leaders gathered in the snynagogue that night and considered the proposition. It seemed the only way out, but none of their number wished to volunteer to debate. As the Chief Rabbi said, "It is impossible to win a debate in which the Pope will be both participant and judge. And how can I face the possibility that the eviction of the Jews will be a result of my specific failure?"

The synagogue janitor, who had been quietly sweeping the floor through all this, suddenly spoke up. "I will debate," he said. They all stared at him in astonishment. "You, chief janitor," said the Chief Rabbi, "debate with the Pope?"

"Someone has to," said the janitor, "and none of you will…" So in default of anyone else, the janitor was made the representative of the Jewish community and was appointed to debate with the Pope.

Then came the great day of the debate. In the square before St. Peter’s was the Pope, surrounded by the College of Cardinals in full panoply, with crowds of bishops and other church functionaries.  Approaching was the Jewish janitor, surrounded by a few leaders of the Jewish community, in their somber black garb and their long gray beards. The Pope faced the janitor—and the debate began.

Gravely, the Pope raised a finger and swept it across the heavens. Without hesitation, the janitor pointed firmly toward the ground, and the pope looked surprised. Even more gravely, the Pope raised one finger again, keeping it firmly before the janitor’s face. With the trace of a sneer, the janitor raised three finger, holding them before the Pope just as firmly, and a look of deep astonishment crossed the Pope’s face. Then the Pope thrust his hand deep into his robes and produced an apple. The janitor thereupon opened a paper bag that was sticking out of his hip pocket and took out a flat piece of matzo. At this the Pope exclaimed in a loud voice, "The Jewish representative has won the debate. The Jews may remain in Rome."

The janitor backed off, the Jewish leaders surrounded him, and walked hastily out of the square. They were no sooner gone than the church leaders clustered about the Pope. "What happened, Your Holiness?" they demanded. "We didn’t follow the rapid give and take." The Pope passed a shaking hand across his brow. "The man facing me," he said, "was a master at the art of debate. Consider, I began the debate by sweeping my hand across the sky to indicate that God ruled all the universe. Without pausing an instant, that old Jew pointed downward to indicate that nevertheless, the devil has been assigned a dominion of his own below. Then I raised one finger to indicate there was but one God, assuming I would catch him in the error of his own theology. Yet he instantly raised three fingers to indicate that one God had three manifestations – a clear acceptance of the trinity. Abandoning theology, I produced an apple to indicate that certain blind followers of so-called science were flying in the face of revealed truth by declaring that the earth was as round as an apple. Instantly he produced a flat piece of unleavened bread to indicate that the earth, in accord with revelation, was nevertheless flat. So I grated him victory."

By now the Jews and the janitor had reached the ghetto. All surrounded the janitor, demandning, "What happened?" The janitor said indignantly, "The whole thing was nonsense. Listen. First the Pope waves his hand like he is saying the Jews must get out of Rome. So I point downward to say the Jews are going to stay right here. So he points his finger at me as if to say ‘drop dead, but the Jews are leaving’. So I point three fingers at him to say "Drop dead yourself three times! The Jews are statying." So then I see he is taking out his lunch, so I take out mine."

 Wikipedia - this is another source book of wisdom for you?

'Turiya', like, other words, like 'enlightenment', 'consciousness', 'love', 'Moksha', 'surrender, Nirvana, God, Self, No Self, Oneness, Nothingness, Samadhi, Satori, Grace, Salvation, the Ultimate Truth, The Absolute, Liberation, Freedom and 'Infinite Potential', etc., etc., etc., utterly fails to accurately describe this state of pure consciousness which transcends the mind.  The literal translation of the Sanskcrit word turiya means simply 'the fourth'. It is another name for consciousness which provides the screen on which the other states of waking, sleeping and dreaming come and go.

All these words are like fingers that are pointing to the moon. They are pointing to the same moon - not different moons. Try to not to be so hung up on fingers.  To spend one moment with oneself, a totally undistracted moment, and one would immediately come to understand the indefinable essesnce that these words so poorly represent. All it takes is one small moment that is without the constant chitter-chattering of the mind. In that moment, in that experience - one's being is uncovered. An an understanding instantly arises - the human intellect cannot contain it, and all words are incapable of describing it, they can only be used to point to something greater, infinitely greater. All these words point to the same moon. That moon is analogous to the essence of who we are.

To say that one descriptive label is more superior or inferior to the other labels reveals a poverty, an ignorance. Using decorated intellectual language can not hide it. All labels, all words fall short of describing the true essence of oneself. But no word is less than another. They are all pointing to the same moon - turiya.  

Having even a small taste of turiya, what is realized is that everyone is not so different. It is the same for everyone else as it is for yourself. Because everyone also has the same mechanism called 'mind'. Everyone else has been as disillusioned just as you have been disillusioned. Everyone else in caught up in dreaming, just the same as you have been dreaming.  Any attempt to put such an experience into words, makes the experience less than it is. Hence, all words are lies. Yes, not even turiya, can contain the immensity of existence :)

I have chosen the word to simply remind myself, as if it would ever be possible to forget  - I was surprised to find that such a beautiful username was still available for me to use. 

I personally like the way Ramana Maharshi defines the word
http://buddhasangha.blogspot.com/2008/12/ramana-maharshi-on-states-of.html

To say that your so-called "infinite potential" is superior to other descriptive word choices, contains all other descriptive words that attempt to describe that which is impossible to put into words reveals an ignorance. It may be hurtful. But I am sure you will get over it. 

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