Date:   10/10/2009 2:44:51 AM ( 15 y ago)
Hits:   6,372
URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1504904

  Hv, I know you recommend powders over tinctures. However Herb Cafe makes a strong case the other way around. Can you shed light on why powders are better in light of their claim? Thx!

They are being misleading with their claims.

First of all not all herbs lose potency quickly.  Some herbs are very unstable such as echinacea, which is one of the reasons I don't use it.  But most herbs are actually very stable and can have a shelf life of 5 to 10 years if stored properly.

And some herbs must be oxidized before they can be used safely or to alter their effects.  Cascara sagrada and Jack in the pulpit have to be aged several years before use to render them safe.  Herbs like chaparral. comfrey root, germander and coltsfoot need to be aged for a few months to render them safe.  Hops can be used fresh or aged depending on the use.  Fresh hops are very estrogenic and are used to balance the hormones due their phytoestrogenic properties.  If aged though the herb oxidizes forming the sedative lupulin, which is why aged hops are used in sleep formulas.  If these herbs were as unstable in their dry form as they are implying then aging of any of these herbs for safety or alteration of properties would render them useless in a few months, which obviously is not the case.

As for their claim that not everything in herbs is water soluble this is true, just like everything in herbs are not alcohol soluble.  For example you lose the beneficial insoluble fibers when using tinctures that feed the flora.

They are also overlooking the fact that water is not the only factor.  When you ingest a powder you also have stomach acid, enzymes and motion all playing a role in the breakdown and extraction just like with any food.

Stronger compounds or better absorption are not always desirable.  Poke root and lobelia for example can be toxic so we don't want strong concentrations.  And some compounds that are not readily absorbed or absorbed at all are that way for a reason.  Saponins for example are not absorbed from the gut because if they enter the bloodstream they will hemolysize the red blood cells. Alcohol will extract more saponins from the herb, but they are unlikely to pull the saponins in to the blood unless very high proof alcohols are being used.  Another example though are resins such as myrrh.   In powder form the resin is not really absorbed, but in the high proof alcohols required to extract the resin the resin can be absorbed in to the blood.  Long term use of such resins have been shown to cause kidney damage.  In order to cause kidney damage the resin would have to be absorbed in to the bloodstream, otherwise it would never reach the kidneys in the first place.  Again this is why Nature prevents the absorption of resins from the gut.

And if the right concentration of alcohol is not used then you may not extract the herb at all.  For example you can use vodka to extract most herbs, but not propolis or yerba mansa. The last two are best extracted with pure alcohol. Then there is the problem that many herbs are harmed by the alcohol.  For example the effects of yohimbe are neutralized when it is tinctured.  And echinacea is supposed to be water extracted then a little alcohol added as a preservative.  Direct extraction in the alcohol can denature the immune stimulating polysaccharides.

Tinctures are really over hyped.  Yes they may be absorbed a little faster than powders taken on an empty stomach, but this is rarely necessary.  If you are having an asthma attack then yes I would want something to work immediately.  But for long term conditions like osteoporosis or diabetes the short time you save over powders does not really matter.

I am not sold on the preservation properties that are claimed either.  Alcohol can preserve plant substances by preventing oxidation if pure alcohol is used.  But tinctures often contain less than 50% alcohol, with the remainder of the solvent being water.  Water promotes oxidation.  This is also why I don't like liquid vitamins, they are not stable.  This is one of those claims everyone repeats but they never provide any evidence.  I have looked and the only thing I found were these studies showing an instability of tinctures:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17331690?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSyst...

"Our investigation showed that Hawthorn mother tincture had a higher concentration of procyanidins with respect to the tincture but the stability of these constituents were very low in both preparations. Total flavonoidic content was 3.33 mg/ml, about 1.5 times more than the content of mother tincture and the shelf-life t(90) was about 7 months for both preparations. For Hawkweed preparations a content of caffeoyl-quinic acid derivatives (ca. 4 mg/ml) was found, but their stability was good only in the tincture. The concentrations of flavonoids and umbelliferone were two times as much in the tincture with respect to the mother tincture. Stability of these two classes of constituents was good for both preparations over a 9-month period."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12367686?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

"Our investigation showed a very low thermal stability of the constituents from accelerated and long-term testing and determined by HPLC-DAD and -MS analyses and was related both to the class of flavonoids and water content of the investigated tinctures. Thus, shelf-lives at 25 degrees C of the most stable tincture (Passionflower 60% v/v) was about 6 months and only about 3 months the stability of Milk-thistle tinctures. "

This study backs up my thoughts on the water in the tincture promoting oxidation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12098850?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

"In addition the stability of the constituents of these tinctures from accelerated and long-term testing was also evaluated. From the results it was evidenced that constituent content depends on the solvent used for the extraction. The stability was also shown to be very different and seems to be related to the water content of the tinctures."

I rarely use tinctures because:

-They are one of the most expensive methods to obtain herbs.

-The alcohol can alter the chemistry of the herbs, sometimes even negating the effects of the herb.

-Not everything from the herb is extracted, such as the beneficial fibers.

-Concentrating or increasing absorption of some plant chemicals is not always a good idea.

-Tinctures are not as stable as many claim.  Some compounds such as vitamin C will be quickly oxidized by the presence of water in the tincture.

-There are very few instances where the immediate absorption of a substance is required, so the additional cost is not worth it in most cases.

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