Date:   10/8/2009 2:37:26 AM ( 15 y ago)
Hits:   11,013
URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1503742

1 readers agree with this message.  Hide votes     What is this?

 I don't know if you understand any of what you read - in your argumentative frenzy - but I DO have some chronic hepatitis.

My response was not even close to an "argumentative frenzy". It was a clear and concise explanation of things you questioned. Why do you have such an attitude? You come to these boards supposedly to learn and when people give you answers you want to ignore the evidence and act like a little childish snot! If you don't want answers to your questions then don't ask the questions. And if you don't want to learn then keep ignoring the evidence.

I mentioned it before.

Increasing the flora is one of the silliest things I've heard - intestinal flora is always there: 85% lactobacilli and 15% potentially pathogenic organisms.

When referring to "flora" we are talking about BENEFICIAL bacteria such as Lacobacillus and Bifidus species, not pathogenic bacteria. Noone tells you to take E. coli as a way to establish your flora do they?

Dysbiosis is a reversal of this equilibrium and must be corrected.

Agreed, which is why you have to build up the good bacteria (there is that easier for you to follow?). The good bacteria compete for space and food with the pathogenic bacteria. The good bacteria also produce bacteriocides that help to control the pathogenic bacteria.

There is no such thing as lack of flora!

Wrong again. Once again when discussing the flora in alternative medicine this is a reference to the "good bacteria". And as even you pointed out dysbiosis is a "reversal of this equilibrium". In other words an overgrowth of bad bacteria or other pathogens. Not an overgrowth of good bacteria. And how do these pathogens overgrow? Well in large part due to a lack of beneficial bacteria (flora), which as I have pointed out already kill pathogenic bacteria and compete for space and food with these bacteria, as well as form acids and compete for food to control Candida. This is such a simple concept. I don't know why you are having such a hard time trying to comprehend these facts unless you are too busy looking to argue with the facts rather than learn from them.

There may be intestinal fauna though! ha ha ha

But this will never happen in the presence of serious candida proliferation - candida just eradicates the lactobacilli.

No, its the other way around. Candida converts in to its pathogenic fungal form when there is insufficient good Lactobacillus bacteria to maintain proper acidity of the intestines. When the intestines become too alkaline the Candida goes from a yeast form in to a pathogenic fungal form. So why do antibiotics leads to fungal Candida if the antibiotics kill both the beneficial and pathogenic bacteria equally? Simple. Because the killing of the Lactobacillus bacteria by the antibiotics reduces the acids that keep the Candida under control. Same reason antibiotics or soap in the vaginal cavity leads to fungal Candida in the vaginal cavity. Same reason that a lack of stomach acid from age, nutritional deficiencies or the use of antacids or acid blockers causes Candida overgrowth in the stomach. Same reason skin exposure to alkalis like soap and hydroxides used to make cement can cause fungal infections of the skin....... These facts are well known in science and medicine and you can very easily verify these facts IF you wished to learn the truth. Instead you have someone here trying very hard to help you understand and all you want to do is be insulting and argue!!!

And lactobacilli are not known to implant and form viable colonies if intestinal walls are completely inflammed.

If they were completely inflamed then you would be in very serious trouble. Complete inflammation, as such as is seen in Crohn's disease, can cause blockages. This is why these inflamed SECTIONS are surgically removed. The reason I emphasized "sections" is because even if you were right, which I seriously doubt, the entire intestinal tract would not be "completely inflamed". And your statement is contradictory to your earlier claim that there is no such thing as a lack of flora. If the bacteria are not able to colonize because of the inflammation then there would be a lack of flora, right? By the way here is a study for you. Note that they say there is a deficiency, not an absence of, Lactobacillus and Bifidus bacteria in cases of Crohn's disease, which is an autoimmune condition resulting in a full thickness inflammation of the intestinal wall. Also pay attention in the article where they discuss the supplementation of these good bacteria help to ameliorate the symptoms of Crohn's:

http://www.bcm.edu/pathology/labs/Versalovic/probiotics.htm

Some more reading for you:

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1521691803000684

"Prebiotics may increase colonization by lactobacilli and can prevent mucosal inflammation. Modulation of the gut flora with probiotics may prove useful in the prevention and control of inflammatory bowel diseases."

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=96052

"It has been suggested that adhesion of lactobacilli to human intestinal mucus has a probiotic function in preventing the adhesion to and colonization of damaged tissue sites by invading pathogens (34). The induction of mucin gene expression is perhaps one of the mechanisms whereby probiotic strains minimize the interplay of other microbes with intestinal mucosal cells and thereby intestinal inflammation (17)."

So damaged tissues will inflame, yet somehow the probiotics still manage to help protect those damaged areas from pathogens.

And proof that Lactobacillus species can adhere to inflamed intestinal tissues:

http://cvi.asm.org/cgi/reprint/10/4/643.pdf

"The adhesion to the colonic tissue pieces of the tested strains was found to range from 1.4% for L. rhamnosus LC 705 to diverticulitis tissue to 9.7% for L. rhamnosus GG to tissue from patients with IBD (Table 2). L. rhamnosus GG was found to adhere significantly better to the intestinal tissue in general than all other tested strains (P  0.05), while L. rhamnosus LC 705 was found to adhere significantly less to the intestinal tissue than all other tested strains (P  0.05). The other tested strains did not differ in their ability to adhere to the intestinal tissue. L. rhamnosus GG adhered significantly less (P  0.05) to control tissue (4.9%) and diverticulitis tissue (3.3%) than to IBD tissue (9.7%) and rectal carcinoma tissue (6.5%). L. reuteri ING1 bound significantly better (P  0.05) to tissue from IBD (8.7%) than to tissue from control samples (3.7%) and patients with rectal carcinoma (5.3%) and diverticulitis (2.9%). There was a trend for L. rhamnosus E-800 to also bind better to IBD tissue (8.9%) than to rectal carcinoma tissue (4.2%). However, this did not reach statistical significance (P  0.08). No differences were observed in the adhesion to tissue from patients with UC or CD; these observations were therefore grouped as IBD."

I have been on high counts probiotics VSL#3 and Custom Probiotics for months. Also mentionned it before several times.

So tell me why with 450 billions different lactobacilli that I take twice a day, why have I not conquered candida yet?

There could be several reasons. It could be the product is not as active as you think. There are various factors that can affect activity. Or it could be that you are not feeding the flora. The flora need to ferment fibers for food and for the production of the acids. Taking probiotics without feeding them is like putting gasoline in a car without an engine. 

I come here to find answers, not long drawn conflictual arguments.

And yet when you are given the answers you decide to be insulting and argumentative.

<< Return to the standard message view

fetched in 0.00 sec, referred by http://www.curezone.org/forums/fmp.asp?i=1503742