Date:   4/21/2009 3:44:21 AM ( 15 y ago)
Hits:   3,355
URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1401581

 >"This I really have to disagree with. A few strains have been shown to be transient. But there are literally thousands of beneficial strains that inhabit the gut."

You seem to be confusing resident bacteria with orally ingested probiotics.

Not really since they are the same strains of bacteria.

Of course resident bacteria inhabit the gut, and these respond to prebiotics. But oral probiotics are not resident bacteria, and they are transient.

Actually most strains are.

Do you have any evidence that shows otherwise?

Providing evidence goes both ways. Technically you are the one making the claim that they are not resident so you should be providing the evidence to your claim. Since I already have some evidence though here it is:

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/308

Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium lactis and Lactobacillus F19 prevent antibiotic-associated ecological disturbances ofBacteroides fragilis in the intestine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18524406?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSyst...

"Interaction of probiotic Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium strains with human intestinal epithelial cells: adhesion properties, competition against enteropathogens and modulation of IL-8 production."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17265871?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Adhesive and chemokine stimulatory properties of potentially probiotic Lactobacillus strains.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252493?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Assessment of adhesion properties of novel probiotic strains to human intestinal mucus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10536300?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

The effect of probiotic bacteria on the adhesion of pathogens to human intestinal mucus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17377402?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSys...

Effects of probiotics on enteric flora and feeding tolerance in preterm infants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19365593?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Probiotic properties of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Lactobacillus paracasei isolated from human faeces.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543808?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Screening of probiotic activities of forty-seven strains of Lactobacillus spp. by in vitro techniques and evaluation of the colonization ability of five selected strains in humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372165?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSyst...

Identification of surface proteins involved in the adhesion of a probiotic Bacillus cereus strain to mucin and fibronectin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066809?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Characterization of Bacillus probiotics available for human use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179885?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSys...

A randomized placebo-controlled comparison of 2 prebiotic/probiotic combinations in preterm infants: impact on weight gain, intestinal microbiota, and fecal short-chain fatty acids.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17377402?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSys...

Effects of probiotics on enteric flora and feeding tolerance in preterm infants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19365593?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Probiotic properties of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Lactobacillus paracasei isolated from human faeces.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543808?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Screening of probiotic activities of forty-seven strains of Lactobacillus spp. by in vitro techniques and evaluation of the colonization ability of five selected strains in humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19372165?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSyst...

Identification of surface proteins involved in the adhesion of a probiotic Bacillus cereus strain to mucin and fibronectin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066809?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Characterization of Bacillus probiotics available for human use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179885?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSys...

A randomized placebo-controlled comparison of 2 prebiotic/probiotic combinations in preterm infants: impact on weight gain, intestinal microbiota, and fecal short-chain fatty acids.

>You are never going to kill off all of the benefical bacteria with antibiotics. There will always be survivors, which is again why prebiotics can be used to get the numbers back up.

You seem to have missed the key point of my argument. It is not that ALL bacteria are killed off by antibiotics. It is that certain strains of bacteria that provide the most protection to the body from candida infection are totally killed off. Once a STRAIN of bacteria is totally killed off, no amount of prebiotics will bring them back to life. And if the mother doesn't have the protective strains, how is the baby going to get them? Not from colostrum or nipple sucking, and certainly not from prebiotics.

You are not going to kill off any one strain of flora completely. These bacteria can survive and adapt just like any pathogenic bacteria. In fact some of the intestinal flora have already demonstrated a resistance to antibiotics:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=241779

Drug resistance plasmids in Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus reuteri.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18279182?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSyst...

Characterization of oral lactobacilli as potential probiotics for oral health.

"Four Lactobacillus plantarum and two Lactobacillus oris strains expressed resistance to tetracycline and/or doxycycline. "

If you think about it, the first bacteria in the gut to be killed off by antibiotics are likely to be the most beneficial ones,

Not true as I have already shown.

the ones that are residing in direct contact with the mucous membranes (and physically protecting the lining from candida), because these will have more contact with the antibiotic than free bowel bacteria. So after a round of antibiotics, any prebiotics you ingest are feeding comparatively less beneficial bacteria.

See above because again this is untrue. In fact one of the studies I provided showed that the use of probiotics DURING antibiotic therapy prevented any drops in the numbers of intestinal flora during antibiotic therapy. And the numbers of intestinal flora quickly rebounded after cessation of antibiotic therapy, with or without probiotics.

BTW, I'm not knocking prebiotics per se, just your logic.

The thing is that even without all the research readily available contrary to your hypothesis, logic and common sense would still tell us that probiotics and prebiotics work to restore the flora. Again, why would the original flora that inhabits our intestines colonize, but the same exact bacteria in probiotic supplements cannot colonize when taken orally? That makes absolutely no sense. Furthermore, if there was no way to rebuild the flora if they have been supposedly killed off completely then how come we don't all have chronic or systemic Cadidiasis from the antibiotics that we have had throughout  our lives? Again common sense tells us that the flora ARE NOT completely killed off and they do rebound either through probiotics or even the dietary prebiotics we ingest.

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