Date:   3/20/2008 3:41:08 PM ( 16 y ago)
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URL:   https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1136625

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Fonty,

You say:

"I don't believe I have the right to push my beliefs onto others I don't believe any other human has a right to do that to me."

Isn't that what you're doing by objecting to my positions?

I don't know how it is in Australia, but in America, we're still allowed to say what we want. At the same time, people have the right not to listen. this is the right: to not listen. There is no such right to not have belief's pushed onto you.

NOW, if I were to tie you to a tree and give you an earful, that would be illegal.

It's funny how you try to build me up as some sort of tyrant, forcing you to believe what I do, and then tearing me down based on that. We call that the straw man fallacy. Am I wrong in expecting more from you?

But I haven't done that.

If you were secure in your position, you wouldn't feel threatened by mine, and you wouldn't have to behave underhandedly.

How many of you have said I've pushed, shoved, crammed, whatever?? I've never done such a thing. I've sternly given my position. That's all. There is nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical with that. Quite the contrary.

Unfortunately you're mired in relativism.

I hate to tell you this, but relativism NEVER works. You CAN'T say that everybody's beliefs are equal, especially when you oppose mine. For relativism to be true, you must extend equal courtesy to ALL belief systems, including mine. And it is obvious that you are unable to do so.

In fact, if you truly respected my right to believe what I want, then you wouldn't have said anything. You might say, sure you can believe what you want but just keep your mouth shut. Well, unfortunately, my belief involves speaking out.

Absolute truth does exist, believe it or not. It is each person's responsibility to seek it out with his whole heart. Can I prove this to you? Perhaps, but you would have to be open-minded, and it appears your mind is made up.

chris,

First of all, there is no consensus on what is science. THAT'S A FACT. Philosophers have argued over this subject for eons. Today we approach Science pragmatically at best. After studying the various philosophies, the only answer to each system is to be all-knowing. This would remove all human biases. Since no human is all-knowing, the only logical answer to our TREMENDOUS shortfallings is if someone who was all-knowing would simply relay the truth to us.

Science has devolved recently. The focus of Science is to seek the truth relating to our physical surroundings. In the past, man's mind was open to any possibility. If the scientific explanation happened to be metaphysical, then so be it. Now the scientific community has eliminated any possibility of metaphysical explanations. Only explanations from the physical realm are allowed. Should a metaphysical answer be the correct one, Science will never be able to achieve truth.

"Absolutely nothing about Shelton's work was based on faith Golthing, but by concrete evidence of trial and error: results that were actually experienced within the physical world.
As I have said before, faith is a concept that you have to accept on trust: it is not verifiable, provable or disprovable, which is just not the same experience as Sheltons.
Sheltons work was also based on personal verifiable experience which attained tangible results, which was shared independently by many others in his field. This has nothing to do with "Faith"."

I didn't say Shelton's work was based on faith. I said your acceptance of his work is faith.

Let me give you an example. Many people tell me that evolution is "science". These people are basing this statement on Faith. None of these people were present to witness evolution. NONE. None of these people ever recreated evolution in a laboratory or even dug up a dinosaur bone. They are basing their beliefs on what they have read in papers and magazines as well as what they have seen on TV. This is faith not science. Faith that what the "experts" are saying is actually true. Often these "experts" fabricate their findings to improve their funding. Often the experts misinterpret their findings. Etc. So, it is impossible to honestly say that evolution is science. One MUST have observed it. Observation is one piece of the scientific method, right? The evidence is not overwhelming enough to displace the need to observe the actual event. Even Darwin was honest enough to question his "theories" occasionally.

So, along those lines, you did not share in Shelton's experiences. You didn't meet him. You didn't fast 60,000 people. Yet you take his writings by FAITH exactly like I take the timeless writings in the Bible. You put your Faith in Shelton's writings and they have proven themselves to you. I have put my faith in the Rock of Ages and it has repeatedly proven itself to me.

"Golthing: "the earth is flat concept" was knocked on its head by Galileo and other Scientists after him: this is a proven and verifiable fact of science and has nothing to with dogma, or my needing to dogmatically oppose this supposition."

How do you know the earth is flat? How do you know that the earth wasn't flat until the day it was proved to be a sphere? We don't. It's only theory.

Many "scientist" say we are experiencing man-made global warming. People are ridiculed if we don't go along with the hype. "IT'S SCIENCE, IT'S SCIENCE" Let's ignore the fact that the other planets in our solar system are heating up as well, and the last time I checked there are no people living on them. Oh, and lets ignore the fact that large numbers of equally qualified scientist disagree with man-made global warming. And let's ignore the fact that global warming may actually be good for the planet. Actually, let's follow the money. Billions of dollars are given to scientist who drink the Koolaid, while those who oppose the theory are left in the cold. Meanwhile, the global-warming messiah, Gore, is making hundreds of millions of dollars so that he can keep his 45,000 square foot home air-conditioned.

So I don't find comfort in following the norm when it comes to science. Remind yourself that almost everybody thinks you are a loon and that true medical science lies in the hands of the pharmaceuticals and health industry. I think regarding this, we can all agree that science has been raped once again.

"Your supposition of "IF" is an act of faith. God has NOT paid me a visit to spread his message to all ends of the earth, and as you have said, this is "hypothetical" and not based on provable experience or science."

you are correct, God has not visited you. But he has visited others.

He visited Adam and Eve in the Garden.
He visited Moses in the burning bush.
He visited Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.
He visited the prophets.
He visited the apostles and Israel.

These others have given us the message that God gave them. Many if not most of them were dogmatic to the point of death. This speaks volumes, as I don't believe there are many people with equal conviction of their beliefs willing to give their lives to spread their message to those in need.

I'm eternally grateful for these dogmatic individuals.
 

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