Well I can see I am out numbered here, but I knew AA would take over this forum from the beginning! Thats all right I am not trying to change anyones mind or try to prove that AA is an evil entity ! I am just trying to offer up the other side of the coin, I dont profess to have the answer for everybody ! I know what worked for me and and I accomplished that in spite of being labeled an incurable by AA! There are many theories out there about what an alcoholic is and what causes alcoholism! Yet no real consensis, unless you believe the propaghanda from the statistics that AA puts out! I know everyone out there has some personal method that they used to help themselve that would not go down as a sure cure for alcoholism but it helped You personally! I wish I could be so sure as some of the posters here that they have the cure that works for all people at all times everywhere! I dont! I am not that vane yet! Grog