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Re: Will you defend the religious system's false doctrines. or..
 
trapper/kcmo Views: 261
Published: 3 years ago
 
This is a reply to # 2,417,320

Re: Will you defend the religious system's false doctrines. or..


im getting this same kind of accusations from a good friend of mine and the only person i have been able to communicate about the lord with for decades now. he keeps wanting answers from me. he wants me to be more accurate in what i say. he makes all kinds of demands from me. i hope the lord returns the favor some day. you seem to be will to discuss these things so lets go. i tried it in the last thread but maybe i wasnt specific enough for you.

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ed:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I begin by responding with a few more quotes:

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steve
i am more than entitled to my own opinion. it is my duty to form an opinion that i own outright and can defend before god himself. the truth bears all scrutiny. if i am not walking in the path of righteousness and truth then i look to be corrected. knowing that the lord is in control of everything, i dont pick and choose the source of the correction. i accept it if it aligns with the truth regardless of where it comes from. yea, im super free.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

the reason i use the scriptures is twofold. they are the single greatest source of truth i have found on earth AND i am using them to deal with people who say they believe them. of course they say things those people dont believe and/or dont understand. since i know them better than they do, i have them at a gross disadvantage. but even better than that, i know what they mean.

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ed:
"Biblical inerrancy is a creation of the Church. It's a case of misapplied faith, a form of idol worship."

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steve:

i agree completely with that.

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ed:

"The written word is human, it becomes a replacement for faith in the Living God."

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steve:

i dont agree with that. first, language comes from the creator. it is the tool of creation. second, the bible was first an oral tradition. the bible is a living document meant for living people in search of the truth about life. but inerrant? I am errant. how the heck can i judge that? it is so much a part of me, how would i even know?

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ed:

"The authors of the Bible books didn't claim divine inspiration or inerrancy [in their own writings]. The institutional church uses inerrancy to [derive their authority and to] maintain control."

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steve:

a little bit of splitting hairs there but basically true. there are descriptions of events and quotations of god and people. "thus saith the lord" is pretty obviously supposed to be the father speaking. for the most part, our translation of the bible is pretty accurate. all through life, the more experience i got with the bible the more i understood it. those writings have authors and settings and those are to be taken into account, for sure.

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ed:

"God is the only perfect reality, but lacking a visible presence of God we tend to make the books about God the perfect reality. This notion came from church leadership who needed scriptures to be the authority upon which they established theirs. The flock then bullies each other with competing authoritative positions based on the same conflicted books."

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steve:

thats just the sociology of groups. religion is a form of control and is used to manipulate populations by those who wish to rule.

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ed:

"The church has too much pride invested in their own doctrine of inerrancy to concede the obvious errors."

"At some point a new religion about the Bible being perfect replaced faith in an inerrant God.

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steve:

more of the dynamics of cults. they own the secrets and dole them out to their supporters to make them feel good. same all over the world since time began. even the serpent in the garden had a theology which he wielded quite deftly against eve.

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ed:

***********************

Now in my own words...

I suggest the mistake is in simply accepting that the institutionalized religious system, its scribes, its counsels all are trustworthy and correct including in it's declaration that its bible is 100% inspired of God in spite of all the evidence to the contrary including the many absurdities and atrocities ascribed against God's character within parts of that book. The mistake people have made is in placing so much faith in the religious system and in what this system has insisted they must believe, rather than in choosing to allow the Holy Spirit in their heart to help them to discern this for themselves. Clarifying this point by listing a few of the atrocities religious men have ascribed against God's character was the intention of the original post.

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steve:

and thus begins a disortation about your own hard won opinion. you seem to be making it about some kind of moral play. i dont share your morality. i think there are some people in dire need of killin. i can think of many instance where if i were there and i was armed and saw a thing being done i would have to kill someone. i do not believe that killing someone in and of itself is any big deal. logically, it merely hastens the inevitable. second, i believe there are innocents in this world and i would be all for killing to stop their harm. the law of moses does not say "thou shalt never kill anyone under any circumstance." the implications and further reading of the law makes it clear that this is about the taking of innocent life, not just any life whatsoever. you like to point to the genocide of certain peoples. well, i cant make that kind of decision because i dont have enough information. but i do know enough about the father to trust his word on it. not necessarily that ancient written text but certainly the word he puts in my heart. i know him and i know me. im not the least bit worried about making a mistake regarding these things. abraham believed god. thats all the lord wanted to know.

so if that is it in a nutshell i dont want to quibble about it. death is no biggy. god can resurrect anyone he wants. he can make people out of anything he wants. he can do with them what he wants. if you want a portion of scripture that i think is completely fabricated its this idea of eternal torture. the father i know and his son are in no way down with that. how can a temporary existence earn an eternal reward? or punishment? it cant. thats why its not about what you do. it is who you are and who you listen to that matters.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord,

choose you this day whom ye will serve;

whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,

or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:

but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

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ed:

When you say you don't feel comfortable declaring things against God and when you imply that challenging parts of the bible is arrogant, you are equating every part of the bible with God as if they are indistinguishable and inseparable.

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steve:

nope. youre putting words and intent in my mouth. i think ive made my position pretty clear. i agree with the factualness of the bible and how it describes things. i dont have a problem with patriarchy. i dont have a real problem with slavery in that there are plenty of people who are ownable. they are owned by the state or their job or whoever wants to come along and have their way with them. its insane to think that a well taken care of slave is worse off than a person who is hunted, raped, abused, beaten, eaten or whatever. there are way worse things than death or slavery. five minutes of sincere thought will produce that conclusion. we live in fragile times. they could change in a heartbeat and not for the better. i thank god for my easy life and fairly carefree existence, but it hasnt really done people any favors. it has allowed evil to flourish while the righteous get punished.

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"If God doesn't soon bring judgment upon America, He'll have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!"

This statement frequently attributed to Billy Graham, actually originated with his wife, Ruth, during a review of her husband's manuscript for his book, World Aflame, published in 1965. He had just finished a chapter vividly describing the sinful conditions in America, and gave it to Ruth to read. She was very much sobered by the writing and returned the document to the study where he was writing and laid it on his desk, saying, "Billy, if God doesn't come soon and bring judgment upon the United States, He's going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!" The account was recalled briefly as an illustration in a message by Dr. James Kennedy (pastor, Coral Ridge Presbyterian, Fort Lauderdale, Florida), entitled "Prayer and the World Crisis", at the National Prayer Congress, Dallas, Texas in 1976. The statement has frequently been requoted by many others since that time.

By Dr. Dale A. Robbins

http://www.victorious.org/pub/graham-quote

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ed:


I suggest in response that declaring things against God is exactly what people are doing when they place their faith in the religious system's doctrines of a perfect bible and when they wholeheartedly without the slightest willingness to question and without blinking an eye agree with the slanderous accusations of atrocities the religious system and its bible ascribe against God. Myself, i am declaring that my Heavenly Father, the Father of Jesus, is innocent of these false charges against His perfect and infinitely loving character.

God alone is perfect, not this collection of books written and chosen by fallible men who then ascribed perfection to this collection of books as a tool in helping to establish their own authority.

Placing full trust in the religious system's bible as being perfect is a form of idolatry, seeking after a substitute god, treating this system's bible as a golden calf. Many other religions have made the same erroneous and idolatrous claim about their own book and institutionalized "Christianity" is just one more tainted and corrupted religion committing the same idolatrous abomination.

I know that people who have placed their trust in the religious system in this area and who have chosen to conform to and submit under this system where its doctrines of the bible are concerned have a hard time separating the true Living God of Jesus from the god of atrocities as depicted in parts of the bible. They feel they have no choice since they have been pressured by the religious system into believing that they are not allowed to let the Spirit of God help them to discern whether this system's proposition of a "100% perfectly inspired bible" is true or false, and so they simply conform to this system's expectations and live in obedience to it, turning their discernment switch off in this area.

If you or anybody else based upon their preconceived notion of the religious system's bible being 100% perfect has decided that there is nothing wrong with multitudes of innocent babies being murdered by the god of this bible, i kindly suggest that all such individuals have been indoctrinated in this way and desensitized against how deeply horrific this truly is.

If one really allows oneself to honestly reflect upon this, how is this widespread murder of innocent babies along with every other bible atrocity ascribed against God any different from what Satan would cheerfully do himself given the opportunity? If one did not preconceive a 100% divinely inspired bible that was supposedly a perfect representation of God, do these atrocities really seem like behaviors the John 3:16 Heavenly Father of Jesus would commit?

Since complete loyalty to this book and to the religious system's doctrines of perfection ascribed to this book... have become so central to the religious convictions of these individuals, they have become unwilling to question any parts of the book. They don't realize that this questioning is not against God Himself, but rather against whether or not a book written by men and ascribed inerrancy by men is accurately depicting God in these ways. In incorrectly preconceiving that their bible is perfectly inspired by God, and becoming convinced that this idea about the bible is incontestable, their loyalty is thus far greater to a book than to the Living God Himself.

It's also interesting that some people will challenge this authoritarian religious system in various other ways and say they are not a part of this system, but these same people do not dare to challenge this system where its self-serving doctrines pertaining to the perfection of the bible are concerned.

Blessings, Ed.

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one mans atrocity is another mans justice. you werent there. you dont know. canaan and baal put together is the word cannibal. my god is merciful. there is every reason to believe that those people were having a mercy done on them to kill them all. there were giants and food galore. what do the rich do when they run out of everything else to do or have? they turn to evil rituals and sex with children and all manner of depravity and degeneracy. same with the flood. the word says the earth was filled with violence. i have to assume you havent spent any time in jail or in a war zone or in abject poverty or worse. you judge from what position? a half a century of existence and senses that are so narrow as to keep out most sight and sound. a fragile body that shuts down, passes out and dies at the loss of a little air or blood. i posit that you have no idea whatsoever what you speak of regarding your writings above. and thank god for it!

be well.
 

 
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