Re: sterol stones and saponification debunked

 1) liver flush stones are caused by saponification of olive oil resulting in soap stones
2) liver flush stones are formed from a sterol/cholesterol complex with the cholesterol coming from bile


i will disprove both of these.

Impossible to disprove what it true.

olive oil has a lye SAP value of 135.3

this means it takes 135.3 mg of LYE to saponify 1 gram of olive oil

lye, also known as sodium hydroxide, the active ingredient in Drano is extremly alkaline --
a very dangerous and caustic substance.

First of all Drano is potassium hydroxide, not sodium hydroxide, which is sold under the name Red Devil Lye.    This is irrelevant anyway since we are not ingesting sodium or potassium hydroxide and these are not the only substances capable of saponifying olive oil.

stomach acid is, not surprisingly acid, not alkaline, so we aren't getting any magical sodium hydroxide or lye from stomach acid.

Nobody ever claimed this.  These pseudostones are formed in the intestines, which is not the stomach.  And the intestines are exposed to a variety of alkalinizers.

the most alkaline substance in the body is bile...

Not necessarily.  The pH of bile varies and sodium bicarbonate released in to the intestines from the pancreas can be more alkaline than the bile.  Another important fact that was overlooked was the fact that magnesium hydroxide can form from magnesium sulfate ingestion, and the pH of magnesium hydroxide can reach 9, exceeding the alkalinity of bile.

people doing Liver Flushes have impaired or even no bile flow. some people have done liver flushes while jaundiced.

This is totally false.  People do the liver flushes thinking that they will pass real gallstones by stimulating gallbladder contraction, which will also expel bile.  A perfectly healthy person may fall for the liver flushing myth, so there is no proof that everyone doing the flushes have impaired bile flow.  Impaired bile flow leads to REAL gallstone formation, which as the various lab analyses have shown is not what the green blobs people are passing from liver flushing are.  The lab analyses have proven that they are primarily hardened olive oil.

Furthermore, jaundice has various causes including lodging a real stone from doing liver flushes. Jaundice does not mean impaired bile flow.

sodium hydroxide has a ph of 12-14.

And?.......  Again this has nothing to do with the topic since people are not ingesting sodium hydroxide.

and why the human body does not produce anything so caustic that it can kill itself.

Did you know that when the gallbladder is removed that the caustic bile can lead to intestinal cancer killing you?  Or that if you rupture your pancreas that the digestive enzymes can digest you from the inside out killing you?

Epsom Salts have a ph of about 7.3

Until it is converted in to magnesium hydroxide in the body raising the pH  up to 9.

where is the the sodium hydroxide coming from in this supposed saponification?

Who said sodium hydroxide is playing a role in the saponification process?  Saponification can occur with a variety of alkaline substances including bile and magnesium hydroxide.  Try researching fecal soaps in the medical journals.  They discuss saponification by bile.  It is actually a well known process.

By the way, did you know that the body produces traces of sodium hydroxide?

even if bile was reacting with the oil, it is not alkaline enough to saponify the oil.

Not true.  Again research fecal soaps, which are a well known chemical process of soaps being formed in the intestines as a result of bile.

hence the stones produced by liver flushes have in fact been expelled from the liver or gall bladder.

Yet lab tests confirm time and tome again that the green blobs expelled from flushed are primarily hardened olive oil.

here hveragerthi has completely contradicted himself

What did the moderator just say about personal attacks?

when he says 'sterol rich' olive oil. actually olive is at the low end of vegetable oils as far as sterols are concerned.

Not true.  First of all the sterol content of olive oil varies a lot depending on the oil. Pomace olive oil or virgin olive oil for example will have a different sterol content than extra virgin olive oil.  In addition research has shown that the sterol content of olive increases with age during storage:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf9907337

 

hveragerthi has created a brand name called 'real' gallstones. this is a tactic of obfuscation

More personal attacks.

but this is impossible, because people have been ingesting oil for thousands of years and no one reports stones.

Just because the average person is not looking for soap-stones in their feces this does not mean that they do not exist.  In addition, regular consumption of oils decreases bile cholesterol leading to decreased sterol-cholesterol complex pseudostones.  Also people may have been ingesting olive oil for thousands of years, but they are not also ingesting magnesium sulfate, which again forms highly caustic magnesium hydroxide that contributes to the pseudostone formation.

all you have to do is browse in the pictures section the copious amounts of stones produced during the flushes to see that things aren't adding up.

Those pictures prove that what are being passed are not real gallstones.  First of all people claim to pass cups of stones with each flush.  But the gallbladder is not that big to hold that many stones. And they claim to do this day after day.  But real gallstones are extremely slow to form, so there is no way possible to overfill the gallbladder with real gallstones in a day, a week, even a month.  So this 100% proof positive that these green blobs being passed in the feces are not real gallstones.  In addition, many of these pseudostones are in excess of 25mm, which is far beyond the maximum size the bile ducts can dilate even with the magnesium relaxing the ducts.  So even more indisputable proof that these green blobs are not real gallstones.

you name it, have a cholesterol party. in fact, hveragerthi has provided no reason why this reaction needs to take place within the body.
so just combine any cholesterol rich food, hydrochloric acid and olive oil in a test tube and see if you can produce sterol stones.

Actually if you want to do it correctly buy some pure cholesterol from a laboratory supply then add the sterols to form these cholesterol-sterol complexes.  This way the cholesterol will be in more of a free form as in the bile as opposed to bound as in food.

why has no one in the history of the world ever discovered what hveragerthi asserts is such a commonplace occurrence?

Who said they have not.   Just like fecal soaps that have also been reported in the medical journals the information on cholesterol-sterol complexes can be found if searched for.  Refusing to look for the information does not constitute non-existence.

how many people eat crab, shrimp or lobster salad? millions?
why don't all of the patrons of Red Lobster report sterol/cholesterol stones after eating there?

How many people go digging through their feces after eating dinner to see if there are fecal soaps present?  Again the research proving these cholesterol-sterol complexes can be found with a little simple research.  In fact, plant sterols have also been proven to kill cancer cells.  How do they do this?  By binding tightly to the cholesterol in the cell membrane and ripping the cholesterol out disrupting the cancer cell membrane.

beyond this is a little pesky bugger called repeatability.
many people have brought this up before, with no satisfactory response.
if these are indeed chemical reactions with the olive oil, then it should be easily repeatable.
no one to date has had any consistency with their liver flushes, and in the vast majority of cases after a certain number of flushes
the stones disappear no matter how much olive oil they take.

I already addressed why this occurs several times.  In fact this is more proof that the green blobs being produced are not real gallstones.

what could cause such a cessation of the laws of chemistry? why isnt' this supposedly simple chemical reaction repeatable?

it isn't.

It is really simple.  A depletion of cholesterol from repeated expulsion and binding of the cholesterol from the sterols leads to a drop in the soap-stone production.  Simple science further proving that what is being passed are not real gallstones.

modern medicine may certainly have its flaws, but no one has questioned the assertion that bile digests fats.
why now is bile creating stones out of fat instead of digesting it?

If the body absorbs every single gram of fat ingested then how does fat end up in the feces we expel?  The fact is that we do not absorb every gram of fat.  And part of this fat gets saponified forming fecal soaps as the medical research has shown.

Now the case is closed.

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