what is an atheist? 
#42412
19 y
3,373
I'm curious, does that mean (in your view) that you don't believe in god in any form or that you don't believe in the bible's (christian) explanation of god?
I have formed my own set of beliefs after much study and research. My mother had some sort of breakdown during my puberty/formative years (7th grade to SR. year in high school) and became fanatically religious attending a nazarene church at least 3 times a week and forcing my brother and I to go with her.
I rebelled and got nowhere but grounded and then decided "if you can't beat em, join em" so I took membership classes which involved actually reading the bible. Being of moderate intelligence, and old enough to form my own opinions about things, I immediately began to notice discrepancies and outright contradictions.
I decided to do some of my own research to see why nazarenes were so RIGHT and everyone else was so WRONG! and what I found was that I didn't think any of them were wrong. I think they've all pretty much got the right idea - live a good life, something you can be proud of, follow some basic moral laws of nature, treat others as you'd like to be treated - and your soul will be free when you die.
But I do really feel that there is a force, a divinity, a spiritual beauty in all living things that vibrates with power. I think that is "god". Somehow I've come to the conclusion that I believe in god and reincarnation and spiritual enlightenment and ESP and psychic powers and out of body travel etc, etc.
There is no religion out there that embraces and accepts all these things as possible and natural. I think they're all right - christianity, buddhism, islam, even wicca - there are things about each I don't like, but basically I won't call any of them WRONG. Maybe I'm just too middle-of-the-road. But that's what I really feel.
So, I don't know what to call myself - up until now I've called myself a spiritualist because atheist just has such negative, combative connotations. Anybody else have input on this?
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- Re: what is an atheist? orobar
19 y
3,231
This is a reply to # 269,81142412,
I have some input. I don't know about others in this forum, but I take the position of "weak atheism" (I simply lack a belief in God or anything that I would call "god" or "God".) I see this as sort of a default position that is not far off from agnosticism ("I don't know whether or not there is a god or God."). This differs from "strong" atheism in which one claims that God does not exist. Compare the following: "I simply lack a belief in God" and "God does not exist". See the difference?
I do unlike strict materialists believe in a higher power or higher powers however: nature, the universe, etc; but I do not believe in a creator god (the universe or possibly multiverse in some form just is and always has been). I refuse to call these "God" for several reasons: they are not concious in the sense that we are, they are not personal beings, they are not separate from ourselves (we are part of both nature and the universe), they will not listen to us and intervene on our behalf, and "god" is a word that carries a lot of baggage usually referring to an anthropomorphic being that is separate from us and acts in our lives. We may be able to manipulate the forces of nature and the universe to our own end, but they do not have the characteristics that the majority of people like to assign to "God". I continue to hold these "spiritual" views about life, the universe, and everything because of some personal experiences of mine (strong spiritual sense, use of enthenogens like Salvia Divinorum, and my experiences with mysticism) but remain an atheist because I see no evidence of "god" in my life (no answered prayer, belief in creation not necessary, no sense of god despite a strong spiritual intuitiveness, etc.). As you can see, atheism can refer to a wide range of differing beliefs (spiritual atheism all the way to strict materialistic atheism).
_Thomas Orobar
P.S. We really need some more activity on this forum, so post post post!
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- Re: what is an atheist? ff.
19 y
3,111
This is a reply to # 269,814I like your explaination orobar! I would consider myself atheist because I can't say I believe in a god. I certainly do not believe in a one all knowing, all powerful being who created the universe, put life on earth and brought about my existence. The idea of a being like this needing worship is foolishness to me. The idea of a "hell" and a "heaven" type place seams utterly ridiculous. I also believe if there really is an all powerful, all knowing, etc. god, this being would do something to end the distruction done in his/her/it's name. Religion controls people using fear. If you do "fill in the blank" you will burn in hell. I simply don't need the threat of "hell" to choose kindness, tolerance, mercy, compassion, etc. I simply have no reason to believe in a god as of yet.
- Re: what is an atheist? MrCooties
19 y
3,093
This is a reply to # 269,815Good posts.
I usually see my self as "just not playing the game", as in the religion game. Of course atheists get attacked for "not playing", but that's ok to me because I don't want to "win". Most religious types are focused on "winning" their religion instead of truly living it. Religion is full of hypocrisy to me. To waste life's energy trying to get into a mythological heaven sounds absurd to me. Life itself becomes less important when the ultimate goal is the afterlife.
I usually just "refuse to play the game" but I do at times fall into "strong atheism", not because I want to start playing the game and fighting the religious, but because religions affect non-believers like myself, and they get into government and begin to set policy. Policy that affects me and my family, policy that our forefathers set up to protect us from religion. I believe in "seperation of church and state", PERIOD. Millions of American soldiers have died to keep freedoms like keeping religion and theocracy out of government. We should have a neutral government, one that does not promote atheism any more than it promotes religion.
Look at the Pledge of Allegiance:
"under god" = promotes religion
"under no god" = promotes atheism
(leave god out) = neutral government
I have nothing against religion, but I do have a lot against those who use it to change my life, my government, and my family. And yes, I have a huge problem with Presidents who use their own religion to set policy.
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Good posts.
I usually see my self as "just not playing the game", as in the religion game. Imagine a bunch of people arguing, pontificating, judging, attacking eachother. They look over and see me busy with life, busy living life, living reality and all it's ups and downs. Of course I get attacked for "not playing", but that's ok because I don't want to "win". Most religious types are focused on "winning" their religion instead of truly living it. Sunday at church scores them a point, while they spend all week breaking commandments. Religion is full of hypocrisy to me. I see religion as seperating people from reality, and as the cause of much waste of life. To waste life's energy trying to get into a mythological heaven sounds absurd to me. My "heaven and hell" is right here on earth, right now, and every second of life needs to be cherished because it's all over when we die. Life itself becomes less important when the ultimate goal is the afterlife. Of course they can't commit suicide to get there - they'd go to hell or come back as a worm. What a manipulative sham.
I usually just "refuse to play the game" but I do at times fall into "strong atheism", not because I want to start playing the game and fighting the religious, but because religions persecute non-believers like myself, and they get into government and begin to set policy. Policy that affects me and my family, policy that our forefathers set up to protect us from religion. I believe in "seperation of church and state", PERIOD. Millions of American soldiers have died to keep freedoms like keeping religion out of government.
We should have a NEUTRAL government in regards to religion, and this is not promoting atheism as most religious think. If the government said "THERE IS NO GOD" they would be promoting atheism and this is not the case. Making my kids pladge their allegiance to god (...UNDER GOD...)in a public school of which I pay for through taxes is abominable. The original pledge of allegiance had no mention of GOD until the 1950's when McCarthyism was rampant and politicians wanted to set up anti-communism policies, so they inserted "UNDER GOD" into the Pledge of Allegiance" to "protect" the public and our children. What they actually did was to go against freedoms for their own selfish religions.
The three most powerful words in society to get away with something, to get out of something, to manipulate, to get a free pass, is "it's my religion". I do not have this option.
In short I have nothing against religion, but I do have a lot against those who use it to change my life, my government, and my family. And yes, I have a huge problem with President Bush and his selfish reliance on his own religion to promote policy.- Relgious Presidents ff.
19 y
3,011
This is a reply to # 269,816I find it very troubling to have a President who applies his relgion as far as policy in my country (usa). I find it more troubling that americans expect the President to be relgious. I can't remember where I heard or read this, so I'm not 100% about the accuracy, but I think like 70% of americans want a relgious President. I don't get it.
Mr C, you sound like a very emotionaly mature person. I personally get a little heated when the topic of relgion comes up. I'm not the type of atheist who refuses a "bless you" after a sneeze. But, when someone starts preaching religion foolishness to me, I just have to tell them religion was invented by mankind to better control mankind.- Re: Relgious Presidents MrCooties
19 y
3,074
This is a reply to # 269,817Oh I get heated too! I try to not get carried away because in the end the negativity can do more harm than good.
"Lord, give me the strength to change the things I can... the grace to accept the things I can not... and the wisdom to know the difference."
That's a good quote. I try to use it, only without the "Lord" part of course. :)- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
19 y
3,161
This is a reply to # 269,821It's unfortunate, too, that they bring out such negativity. My religious argument is mostly with my mother, who's a fundamentalist christian, but the most frustrating thing to me is that i present well thought-out good, intellectual arguments to her constant blathering about jesus and hellfire and she just tells me I'm going to hell! ha! and she really believes it!
I'm a mostly peace-loving happy-go lucky person living a good life here. I don't do drugs, I love my neighbor, I am generally a good person although I have my moments, don't we all... and here's my mother (and every other fundamentalist christian I've ever met) snorting crank and smoking pot and unemployed and gossiping and blaming everyone but themselves for their miserable condition. All the while begging forgiveness every night just to get up and do it all again the next day.
I mean, what insanity! It's hard to have an adult conversation with a person like that about personal choices and freedoms and keep your cool, know what I mean?
They breed hatred and negativity in the very thing they claim is so forgiving and loving and accepting of all... If you're not Nazarene, you're going to hell! No, if you're not catholic you're going to hell.
I refuse to live my life engulfed in fear and hatred for anyone different than myself, I welcome diverse ideas and opinions! they are the spice of life!
- Re: Fight the negativity dath
19 y
3,285
This is a reply to # 269,823"... and here's my mother (and every other fundamentalist christian I've ever met) snorting crank and smoking pot and unemployed and gossiping and blaming everyone but themselves for their miserable condition. All the while begging forgiveness every night just to get up and do it all again the next day."
Sad but true. Fundamentalist christians are some of the most ignorant and uneducated people on this planet. How can anyone with an IQ over 50 take religious fairy tales as historical fact?
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"... and here's my mother (and every other fundamentalist christian I've ever met) snorting crank and smoking pot and unemployed and gossiping and blaming everyone but themselves for their miserable condition. All the while begging forgiveness every night just to get up and do it all again the next day."
Sad but true. Fundamentalist christians are some of the most ignorant, uneducated people on this planet. How can anyone with an IQ over 50 take religious fairy tales as historical fact?- Re: Fight the negativity Chaz
19 y
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- Re: Fight the negativity Chaz
19 y
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- Re: Fight the negativity ff.
19 y
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This is a reply to # 269,823Hey, I hear you 42412. My mom was a born again christian for all my childhood. Even as a kid I knew it was all foolishness. I mean get real! Maybe just think of religion and god as santa to a little kid. Why blow it for them? For some people it is just their own little safe thing they have.
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Hey, I hear you 42412. My mom was a born again christian for all my childhood. Even as a kid I knew it was all foolishness. I mean get real! The people who were her "friends" were total a-holes! "God" (and the a-holes) told my mother to marry this man who was a total scum bag-drug addict looser. I could go on and on about him, but I'm sure you get the picture (divorced, no thanks to god). Oh yah, he would sin away all week long, then ask for forgivness and was so in touch with god by the time sunday rolled around. I think of that as PROOF there is no god. I would be an atheist regardless of my upbringing, but the born agains, YIKES! If they are in heaven, well I would rather burn in hell. ICKY ICKY bad people! Not all of them, but most of whom I have met.
Think of religion and god as santa to a little kid. Why blow it for them? For some people it is just their own little safe thing they have.- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
19 y
3,222
This is a reply to # 269,827I've begun to think it may be more than safe, it may be "addictive". By that I mean the constant catharsis....
I can speak from observing my Mother anyway, she's had constant addiction problems with actual drugs and co-dependant relationships with men, it doesn't seem she's ever really had a good role model to learn anything from and she's gullible. She believes just about anything you tell her, so it's easy to see why she's a fanatical christian.
I see this pattern though of "sinning" and "redemption". It seems it's become almost addictive for her - she's got the drugs and cigarettes (items of "sin") that she's actually physically addicted to and she feels so much guilt for not being able to quit, then on Sunday she's in church, hands waving in the air, tears running down her face, enraptured by "God's Love", and probably takes a hit as soon as she gets home.
- Re: Fight the negativity ff.
19 y
3,018
This is a reply to # 269,829Yep, my mom too! Though, not any more (so there is hope for your mom too). She was married to the abusive, drug addict, christian. Of course it really upset me. I found that I had to be the one to let go of HER addiction to the all the controlling church crap and her piece of crap husband. I had to remind myself SHE is the parent and I was the kid, even when we were both adults. Try not to forget that for yourself, even if your mother seams to have trouble reconizing the rolls. I had to just let my mom work through all that foolishness. There were things she had to find out for herself. She still gets bible preachy, but she has lightened up alot. So hang in there, as long as she is not putting her life in danger, she has the right to go along with what ever bozo bible christian fundy crap she wants. You as her kid should love her any way, and try not to get dragged down with it. When things for my mom were at the worst, I reminded myself that my mom was a pretty good mom, she tried her best to protect me, she gave me love, she read stories to me, and lots of other good mom things. She was not perfect, she made mistakes, but the point is she put forth her best effort. That is the most anyone could ask. So, have faith that things can change. Sometimes I "pray" for people to find their path in life. When I say pray, I mean I send possitive energy and possitive thoughts to or for someone. I send peacfulness. Well, hope that helps. ff.
- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
19 y
3,200
This is a reply to # 269,830Cool, it's always nice to know there's someone out there that's got the same crap to deal with. lol.
It irritates me too that the church keeps supporting this "Jesus the Enabler" role.
They don't tell her that she needs to take responsibility for her own actions and that she is responsible to herself for the way she's living. They don't try and help her build up her own strength to help herself and take pride in herself, they tell her "Lean on God"! WEll if she's always leaning on someone, how will she ever learn to stand??!!?
It pisses me off that they just keep enabling her weakness so she'll keep Needing them and paying them money to keep her down there, needy and weak.
Am I just a complete idiot not to see "God's Love" in that?- Re: Fight the negativity ff.
19 y
3,104
This is a reply to # 269,831Well, if the church didn't control their memebers with fear or promises of heavenly or earthly treasure, how would they get any new recrutes? How would they make all that money? Every church says you must give money to the church, or god won't bless you. Now what does god need with money? Is it a test? I thought god could see into my heart. True enough, the religious zealot can be very annoying to an atheist. Plus it is extra difficult when it's someone you have to spend a lot of time around. Or someone you love, like a mom. I try for compassion. A lot of these people who get so caught up in their relgion, are often people who have lived through terrible injustice. The only way to cope is by relying on god to revenge their persecutors, and reward the injustice done, with a seat in heaven. Plus there are a bunch of other folks in the same boat who are willing to be your friend, tell you how wonderful you are and how god is going to forgive all your sins and how one day you will be rewareded. blah blah blah. But hey, you don't have to be a religious nut cake. So, there is something to be happy for.
- Re: Fight the negativity #44031
19 y
3,021
This is a reply to # 269,832"Every church says you must give money to the church, or god won't bless you. Now what does god need with money? Is it a test? I thought god could see into my heart."
FYI, the money for the church is for building maintenance, the Lord's Supper at the end of each month where people don't have to pay to sit and eat with their fellow members, buying bibles and study materials, etc. I don't know if atheists have an organization, but it's seems obvious that a group that comes together in a building, and if they ask for money for upkeep, ect, of the building, that is not unreasonable. Of course, with tithes, which we are speaking of has even more meaning than aforementioned. (Anyone who is involved in a club or something of the sort have to pay dues periodically like every week or every month. Should they not pay dues, and just say they have a good heart? Meanwhile, their is no money for club activities, interests, food and drink, ect.)
#44031- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
19 y
3,076
This is a reply to # 269,833Not so. It's in the bible (which was truly adulterated by the catholics, mind you) that it's god's law for people to tithe 10% of their earnings to the church.
IF the church chooses to use it for meals and upkeep that's their business. I think what everyone's talking about here is tithing --- and that is wrong.
That was the catholic "addition" to the bible to help fund their holy wars and buy bigger jewels to wear on their big pointed pope hats.- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
19 y
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This is a reply to # 269,834Furthermore, if people choose to tithe that should also be their business and not mandated by "god"
- Re: Fight the negativity Chaz
19 y
2,969
This is a reply to # 269,834
Tithing a prettied up version of taxation created by the romans the grand oppressors
and the tradition is kept alive in the christian church! The romans lol they kill a guy called jesus blame the jews and make it thier state religion and everyone acts like there is something holy or sacred or spiritual about it! Talk about a great scam !! Has to be the largest scam ever perpretrated on man! You praise the bible you praise julias ceasar! sick yet sad! - Re: Fight the negativity #44031
19 y
2,938
This is a reply to # 269,83442412
"Not so. It's in the bible (which was truly adulterated by the catholics, mind you) that it's god's law for people to tithe 10% of their earnings to the church."
My point exactly. Tithes are for the maintenance, food, bibles, etc. for the church. Where is else is it going to come from it not the members, pop up from the ground, fall from the sky(no pun intended)?
"IF the church chooses to use it for meals and upkeep that's their business."
Again, wouldn't you want to go to a nice looking place to worship, or whatever. For instance, if a school didn't use the money for upkeep of the school it would eventually get dirty, nasty, paint chipping, wood rotting, unrepaired broken windows. Of course, the money is going to be used for maintenance. And food. So, tithing is for those things. And, again, if not from the church's own members where would the money come from? The gov't, a wishing well?
You are not making much sense in this area. Churches like any other organization needs funds. We call it tithing, which is also a affirmation of the love, trust, respect, praise, and worship of God.
And it is not a Catholic tradition because it started in the old testament when the Jews were still slaves in Egypt. At that time tithing was in the form of vegetables, animals, money, whatever you earned, because some people back then bartered, or took a goat or lamb for payment instead of money. That means that tithing was a commandment from God before Jesus came to Earth. Read the first two books of the bible and you will see.
Sincerely,
#44031
- Re: Fight the negativity Chaz
19 y
2,919
This is a reply to # 269,83742412
"Not so. It's in the bible (which was truly adulterated by the catholics, mind you) that it's god's law for people to tithe 10% of their earnings to the church."
My point exactly. Tithes are for the maintenance, food, bibles, etc. for the church. Where is else is it going to come from it not the members, pop up from the ground, fall from the sky(no pun intended)?
"IF the church chooses to use it for meals and upkeep that's their business."
Again, wouldn't you want to go to a nice looking place to worship, or whatever. For instance, if a school didn't use the money for upkeep of the school it would eventually get dirty, nasty, paint chipping, wood rotting, unrepaired broken windows. Of course, the money is going to be used for maintenance. And food. So, tithing is for those things. And, again, if not from the church's own members where would the money come from? The gov't, a wishing well?
You are not making much sense in this area. Churches like any other organization needs funds. We call it tithing, which is also a affirmation of the love, trust, respect, praise, and worship of God.
And it is not a Catholic tradition because it started in the old testament when the Jews were still slaves in Egypt. At that time tithing was in the form of vegetables, animals, money, whatever you earned, because some people back then bartered, or took a goat or lamb for payment instead of money. That means that tithing was a commandment from God before Jesus came to Earth. Read the first two books of the bible and you will see.
Sincerely,
#44031
Expand 14 messages, 21 to 34 of 34 #44031
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- Re: Fight the negativity Chaz
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- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
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- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
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- Re: Fight the negativity #44031
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- Re: Fight the negativity ff.
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- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
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- Re: Fight the negativity ff.
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- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
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- Re: Fight the negativity dath
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- Re: Fight the negativity #42412
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- Re: Relgious Presidents MrCooties
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- Relgious Presidents ff.
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- Re: what is an atheist? MrCooties
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- Re: what is an atheist? ff.
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- Re: what is an atheist? orobar
19 y
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