hey hv
i'm sure you're taking the day off but here's something for you when you get back ;)
it's kinda long, but you should know that about me by now...
so i've had some more tests done and i'm not peri-menopausal (phew) and nor am i hypo-thyroid. i did the thyroflex test (supposedly 100% accurate but – sheesh – who's to say) and the normal range is 80-110. my result was 113 which the nd said was ever-so-slightly-underactive but is secondary to adrenal fatigue (it's good that she said that because i'd been arguing with her about it most vehemently in my head for the 2 weeks leading up to my appointment)
i'm getting some more adrenal labs done: 24-hr urinary cortisol, dheas, aldosterone, acth etc. i can't see that they're going to tell me anything that i don't already know – except maybe they will indicate the severity of my adrenal issues. but i already know that too since, well, i'm living it.
the thing is though, i'm still not really getting anywhere. i'm taking acidophilus, bitters, acv, acerola berry, magnesium oil (transdermal), maca, selenium drink (+zinc), pantothenic acid 250mg, tmg (when i'm feeling tough enough), and milk thistle seed. i'm also doing de + pink salt in my water since i have ultra-pure water. i don't feel any different. i'm still a puffy mess. i'm like a genuine balloon girl ;)
so i'm thinking... i know i have high phase 1 + slow phase 2 liver detoxification pathways (and therefore high oxidative stress and low glutathione). it seems to me that unless i'm sorting out my phase 2 effectively, it's just like the wheel is still spinning but the hamster's dead. i'm adding supplements for my adrenals that my body cannot absorb, utilise or eliminate effectively – which surely creates more physiological (and oxidative) stress. yeah?
i think i have always had high phase 1 + slow phase 2. it could be an inherited weakness. i have always gotten crazy wired on one cup of cawfee, guarana is seriously high-voltage; and i've always gotten a hangover while i'm actually still drinking.
ergo, if in vino veritas; then in vodka+redbull calamitas
i've also always had a strong reaction to pharmaceutical medications. years and years ago, i took prozac (i can't remember why, i wasn't depressed? maybe my doctor wanted a nice holiday courtesy of eli lilly?). apparently it takes, on average, about 5 weeks to become fully effective, but it took me 3 tablets/3 days to go completely nuts. and it took about another 2 weeks to lose the crazy afterwards. i have even bigger problems with meds now – especially those bad voodoo NSAIDs.
so with my adrenal issues and liver detoxification problems, it's probably the chicken and the egg thing.
[the chicken and the egg were lying in bed smoking cigarettes after making love. the egg turns to the chicken and says 'so now we know']
from what i've read, it does seem to be a fairly common occurrence that people who have adrenal fatigue also have slow phase 2 (or vice versa). so my thinking is that both of these need to be treated at the same time or it's just that ol' hamster wheel.
these are some things i've been looking into:
curcumin
in terms of herbs, it seems that curcumin is unique in inhibiting phase 1, whilst stimulating phase II – so that seems promising. can you recommend a dosage for 500mg v. caps 18:1? any other nice herbs that do the same thing?
amino acids
but then, nutritionally, it would seem that adding in amino acids that support phase 2 would be advantageous (glycine, cysteine, glutamine, methionine, taurine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid), as well as lipotropic amino acids like choline and betaine.
can you recommend a good amino acid formula? i've found a few…
lipotropic formulas
i'm also thinking about some kind of formula. the milk thistle seed just doesn't cut it alone. i also recently used a bottle of bupleurum root tincture as well – meh.
so here's a few i found – i would love your opinion as to which one might be more suitable.
this one is designed specifically to support phase 2:
Jarrow Formulas, Liver PF Liver Protection Factors [tablets]
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate) 15 mg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 10 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Biotin 100 mcg
Chromium (from Saccharomyces cerevisiae) 100 mcg
Artichoke Leaf Extract (Cynara scolymus) (5% cynarin, 15% cholorgenic acids) 600 mg
Panthethine (coenzyme vitamin B5) 300 mg
Milk Thistle Seed Extract (Sylibum marianum) (30:1 concentrate yielding total flavonoids) 250 mg
NAC (N-acetyl-L-cysteine) 250 mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 100 mg
PicroMax (Picrorrhiza kurroa)(4% kutkin) 100 mg
Uridine-5'-Monphosphate 10 mg
and this one is (apparently) designed to stimulate glutathione levels:it's one of those kinda creepy m.l.m product so i won't mention the name here [v. caps though]
L-glutamine (750 mg)
N Acetyl Cysteine (375 mg)
Cordyceps (300 mg)
Vitamin C (250 mg)
N Acetyl D-glucosamine (125 mg)
Conjugated Linoleic Acid (100 mg)
Quercetin (37.5 mg)
Alpha Lipoic Acid (75 mg)
Milk Thistle Extract (Silymarin) (25 mg)
do you know much about cordyceps? i did some research, it looks interesting… and it's a great sounding word ;)
and there's this one:
MRM, Liver X with BioSorb [v. caps]
Vitamin E (as d-alpha-tocopherol) 40 IU
Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamin) 20 mcg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) 400 mg
Proprietary Silymarin Blend† (Milk Thistle [seed] Extract) 100 mg
Alpha-Lipoic acid 100 mg
Choline Bitartrate 100 mg
Picrorrhiza kurroa Extract 25 mg
Andrographis paniculata Extract 25 mg
[BioSorb silymarin provides 5X the absorption compared to other brands]
diet/nutrition
i saw a practitioner at sandra cabot's clinic in sydney ages ago so i'm all over the liver cleansing diet – and i eat like that anyway. i eat all of these things too – any other suggestions? (i love watercress and dandelion flowers but i can't find them where i live)
grapefruit (slows down phase 1) + watermelon (supposedly raises glutathione) + broccoli + garlic + onions + sesame seeds + limonene
none of it really makes much difference though since i have severe malabsorption issues (although the grapefruit juice certainly did when i took it with glycine, a mega superoxide dismutase [sod], pinebark + bogus transdermal glutathione – i couldn't get out of bed for 3 days. the wrong balance but – mostly - the wrong nd: curse you red baron)
thanks so much for your help hv. and i hope you had yourself a lovely birthday.
- lulu
methylation, right on. i was asking the gp the other day about a histamine blood test because i seem to have symptoms of both over- and under- methylation (in terms of reactions to drugs and specific vitamins) he was pretty dismissive, so he would be even more opposed to testing homocysteine and SAMe levels. i might ask my new specialist doctor when i go back and get my labs from her.
Choline is your strongest methyl donor, followed by TMG, then DMG and finally SAMe. But TMG is safer than choline and can be taken at much higher levels.
however, none of these things really seems to explain this ridiculous systemic fluid retention. my hypothesis is that my body is diluting itself as a protection from oxidative stress due to liver dysfunction. i haven't found any information that would substantiate that though.
Fluid retention can be caused from a number of reasons. Adrenal issues are a common cause. It can also be from low potassium or problems with the heart, kidneys, nerves controlling blood vessels or lymphatic system. High vasopressin levels are another possibility.
Hv: Choline is your strongest methyl donor, followed by TMG, then DMG and finally SAMe. But TMG is safer than choline and can be taken at much higher levels.
i guess the issue is about whether i am under- or over- methylating. for example, i don't do well with folic acid, b12, b6 and i can only take tmg if i'm feeling tough because it can make me crash. these are symptomatic of over-methylation (according to pfeiffer treatment center). overmethylators also have an adverse reaction to serotonin-enhancing substances such as prozac (as per my earlier post). under-methylators have problems with b3 - and i really really did when i was supplementing with activated b3.
my vitamin b12 levels have dropped from 527pmol/L in 2005 to 178 this year. but i can't tolerate b12 supplements or injections - they make me crash, badly. likewise, my ferritin level has dropped from 117ug/L to 56 this year; and rbc folate from 3356nmol/L to 1862. i know i am deficient in all b vitamins but i can't seem to take them.
hopefully the seaweed and bee pollen will be more effective (if it ever arrives)
i'm also thinking about trying to get my amino acid levels checked...?
Hv: Fluid retention can be caused from a number of reasons. Adrenal issues are a common cause. It can also be from low potassium or problems with the heart, kidneys, nerves controlling blood vessels or lymphatic system. High vasopressin levels are another possibility
for some reason, no doctor will give me a referral for the pathology test for potassium/electrolytes. i crashed when i took potassium chloride powder. i am going to see if my new (very expensive doctor) will do the potassium/electrolyte tests for me.
ditto vasopressin. i asked for this 3 years ago (2 different gps) and they were really dismissive. i just wanted to get my antidiuretic hormone (SIADH) secretion, arginine vasopressin (AVP) and anti-diuretic hormone (ADH) levels checked. both of them looked at me as if i was asking them to join a fringe religion. one of them, grudgingly, ordered a 24-hour urine test for diabetes insipidus - which i didn't have any symptoms for except frequent urination. if it was vasopression, how would you treat this herbally?
heart, kidneys - all good. not sure about blood vessel nerves, but i think my lymphatic system probably has something to do with it (but i don't believe it is causal). i did a really rigorous protocol for about 3 months that involved skin brushing, rebounding, hot/cold showers, lymphatic drainage massage, reiki and even daily ice-baths (brrr) and i was still puffy and tired. and the protocol itself was exhausting...
adrenals - sure thing. but i've never read anything about adrenal fatigue patients having the same kind of chronic crazy systemic puffiness that i have. and i've had it for over 3 years now so, ya know, time to move on...
grrr.
- lulu
my vitamin b12 levels have dropped from 527pmol/L in 2005 to 178 this year. but i can't tolerate b12 supplements or injections - they make me crash, badly. likewise, my ferritin level has dropped from 117ug/L to 56 this year; and rbc folate from 3356nmol/L to 1862. i know i am deficient in all b vitamins but i can't seem to take them.
What about red meats? As long as you maintain your stomach acidity you will be able to absorb the B12 from the meat. And keeping up your flora will help since the flora generate B vitamins, including B12. Other B vitamins can be derived from rice bran, oat bran, pollen, seaweeds, nutritional yeast, nettle leaf, gotu kola, etc.
hopefully the seaweed and bee pollen will be more effective (if it ever arrives)
i'm also thinking about trying to get my amino acid levels checked...?
Hv: Fluid retention can be caused from a number of reasons. Adrenal issues are a common cause. It can also be from low potassium or problems with the heart, kidneys, nerves controlling blood vessels or lymphatic system. High vasopressin levels are another possibility
for some reason, no doctor will give me a referral for the pathology test for potassium/electrolytes. i crashed when i took potassium chloride powder. i am going to see if my new (very expensive doctor) will do the potassium/electrolyte tests for me.
ditto vasopressin. i asked for this 3 years ago (2 different gps) and they were really dismissive. i just wanted to get my antidiuretic hormone (SIADH) secretion, arginine vasopressin (AVP) and anti-diuretic hormone (ADH) levels checked. both of them looked at me as if i was asking them to join a fringe religion. one of them, grudgingly, ordered a 24-hour urine test for diabetes insipidus - which i didn't have any symptoms for except frequent urination. if it was vasopression, how would you treat this herbally?
If you have the symptom of frequent urination then it is not an issue with vasopressin.
heart, kidneys - all good. not sure about blood vessel nerves, but i think my lymphatic system probably has something to do with it (but i don't believe it is causal). i did a really rigorous protocol for about 3 months that involved skin brushing, rebounding, hot/cold showers, lymphatic drainage massage, reiki and even daily ice-baths (brrr) and i was still puffy and tired. and the protocol itself was exhausting...
The lymphatic system is looking more and more like the best possibility. There are some herbs that are great for the lymphatic system. These include red root (New Jersey tea), mullein leaf and chickweed.
adrenals - sure thing. but i've never read anything about adrenal fatigue patients having the same kind of chronic crazy systemic puffiness that i have. and i've had it for over 3 years now so, ya know, time to move on...
The adrenals help to regulate fluids in the body through the mineralcorticoid aldosterone. Aldosteronism can cause the fluid retention. Primary aldosteronism would also present with abnormally low potassium levels though. I am wondering if the crash you experienced with the potassium chloride had something to do with this? Maybe it was causing the electolytes to go way out of balance or maybe made the adrenals work overtime trying to restore the former sodium levels?
so i've had some more tests done and i'm not peri-menopausal (phew) and nor am i hypo-thyroid. i did the thyroflex test (supposedly 100% accurate but – sheesh – who's to say) and the normal range is 80-110. my result was 113 which the nd said was ever-so-slightly-underactive but is secondary to adrenal fatigue (it's good that she said that because i'd been arguing with her about it most vehemently in my head for the 2 weeks leading up to my appointment)
Check your basal body temperature. This is very accurate, especially combined with symptoms.
i'm getting some more adrenal labs done: 24-hr urinary cortisol, dheas, aldosterone, acth etc. i can't see that they're going to tell me anything that i don't already know – except maybe they will indicate the severity of my adrenal issues. but i already know that too since, well, i'm living it.
I don't trust these tests. They only show you a small window, not daily levels.
the thing is though, i'm still not really getting anywhere. i'm taking acidophilus, bitters, acv, acerola berry, magnesium oil (transdermal), maca, selenium drink (+zinc), pantothenic acid 250mg, tmg (when i'm feeling tough enough), and milk thistle seed. i'm also doing de + pink salt in my water since i have ultra-pure water. i don't feel any different. i'm still a puffy mess. i'm like a genuine balloon girl ;)
Puffy as in water retention?
so i'm thinking... i know i have high phase 1 + slow phase 2 liver detoxification pathways (and therefore high oxidative stress and low glutathione). it seems to me that unless i'm sorting out my phase 2 effectively, it's just like the wheel is still spinning but the hamster's dead. i'm adding supplements for my adrenals that my body cannot absorb, utilise or eliminate effectively – which surely creates more physiological (and oxidative) stress. yeah?
I think there may be more to it, but I want to see what the puffiness is you are talking about first.
i think i have always had high phase 1 + slow phase 2. it could be an inherited weakness. i have always gotten crazy wired on one cup of cawfee, guarana is seriously high-voltage; and i've always gotten a hangover while i'm actually still drinking.
ergo, if in vino veritas; then in vodka+redbull calamitas
i've also always had a strong reaction to pharmaceutical medications. years and years ago, i took prozac (i can't remember why, i wasn't depressed? maybe my doctor wanted a nice holiday courtesy of eli lilly?). apparently it takes, on average, about 5 weeks to become fully effective, but it took me 3 tablets/3 days to go completely nuts. and it took about another 2 weeks to lose the crazy afterwards.
Prozac is a nasty drug. I have seen people go suicidal as soon as they started it. One succeeded by blowing his head off with a rifle right after he started the drug.
i have even bigger problems with meds now – especially those bad voodoo NSAIDs.
NSAIDs are very hard on the liver and kidneys.
so with my adrenal issues and liver detoxification problems, it's probably the chicken and the egg thing.
[the chicken and the egg were lying in bed smoking cigarettes after making love. the egg turns to the chicken and says 'so now we know']
from what i've read, it does seem to be a fairly common occurrence that people who have adrenal fatigue also have slow phase 2 (or vice versa). so my thinking is that both of these need to be treated at the same time or it's just that ol' hamster wheel.
these are some things i've been looking into:
curcumin
in terms of herbs, it seems that curcumin is unique in inhibiting phase 1, whilst stimulating phase II – so that seems promising. can you recommend a dosage for 500mg v. caps 18:1? any other nice herbs that do the same thing?
Curcumin is great stuff. That is a strong concentrate. I recommend 1 capsule 3 times daily on an empty stomach. Milk thistle and the picrorrhiza are also good choices. Yucca root will also help with absorption and detoxification, and will help the adrenals.
amino acids
but then, nutritionally, it would seem that adding in amino acids that support phase 2 would be advantageous (glycine, cysteine, glutamine, methionine, taurine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid),
The thing with amino acids is that they compete for absorption. And larger ones can block the absorption of smaller ones. Therefore they need to be taken on an empty stomach at least 30 minutes before meals, and I would not take a bunch of different ones at the same time if using them for therapeutics. I would focus on the glycine and taurine in your case.
as well as lipotropic amino acids like choline and betaine.
Betaine is TMG (trimethylglycine). Choline is actually a stronger methyl donor than TMG, but can cause diarrhea in higher doses. This is why I prefer TMG, but some choline is still a good idea. Lecithin is a great source.
can you recommend a good amino acid formula? i've found a few…
lipotropic formulas
i'm also thinking about some kind of formula. the milk thistle seed just doesn't cut it alone. i also recently used a bottle of bupleurum root tincture as well – meh.
so here's a few i found – i would love your opinion as to which one might be more suitable.
this one is designed specifically to support phase 2:
Jarrow Formulas, Liver PF Liver Protection Factors [tablets]
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate) 15 mg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 10 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Biotin 100 mcg
Chromium (from Saccharomyces cerevisiae) 100 mcg
Artichoke Leaf Extract (Cynara scolymus) (5% cynarin, 15% cholorgenic acids) 600 mg
Panthethine (coenzyme vitamin B5) 300 mg
Milk Thistle Seed Extract (Sylibum marianum) (30:1 concentrate yielding total flavonoids) 250 mg
NAC (N-acetyl-L-cysteine) 250 mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 100 mg
PicroMax (Picrorrhiza kurroa)(4% kutkin) 100 mg
Uridine-5'-Monphosphate 10 mg
The Jarrow formula looks the best.
do you know much about cordyceps? i did some research, it looks interesting… and it's a great sounding word ;)
Mmmmm.......caterpillar fungus. Good for the liver and energy, but also lowers blood sugar and is considered an immune suppressant. So I would say avoid it.
diet/nutrition
i saw a practitioner at sandra cabot's clinic in sydney ages ago so i'm all over the liver cleansing diet – and i eat like that anyway. i eat all of these things too – any other suggestions? (i love watercress and dandelion flowers but i can't find them where i live)
grapefruit (slows down phase 1) + watermelon (supposedly raises glutathione) + broccoli + garlic + onions + sesame seeds + limonene
A lot of these are high sulfur containing foods, which are great for detoxification. You can add cabbage and other foods in that family. Seaweeds and increased fiber intake are also recommended.
none of it really makes much difference though since i have severe malabsorption issues (although the grapefruit juice certainly did when i took it with glycine, a mega superoxide dismutase [sod], pinebark + bogus transdermal glutathione – i couldn't get out of bed for 3 days. the wrong balance but – mostly - the wrong nd: curse you red baron)
thanks so much for your help hv. and i hope you had yourself a lovely birthday.
Thanks, it was good.
Hv: Check your basal body temperature. This is very accurate, especially combined with symptoms.
unfortunately i can't attest to the complete accuracy. i only had a digital thermometer (max temp 37 degrees) and apparently it beeps when it reaches the correct temp but i'm deaf so i can't hear it ;) so for the last few days, i just left it under my arm until it switched itself off.
Hv: Puffy as in water retention?
puffy as in ridiculous water retention - or maybe i'm even just metabolising air. it is kinda like non-pitting edema (no indentation) but it is everywhere. and it fluctuates. for example, 2 years ago it took 3 months to get my blood drawn because my arms were so puffy - they ended up having to take it from my foot. every day i have a different level of puffiness - sometimes my fingers are so swollen i can't write, othertimes my feet are so swollen i can't wear shoes, and somedays i just don't have big enough underwear to even get dressed. and i have clothing in 3 different sizes. there is no apparent correlation (food, water, stress etc), it's just kinda random.
(i guess i could just buy clothes in stretchy, sweaty man-made fibres with elasticated waistbands and just wear hush puppies. but i think my brain would melt.)
before i did my big 36-day water fast to-completion, my puffiness was greatly exacerbated by any movement. if i went swimming, i either couldn't get my flippers off afterwards - or my breasts would puff up so much they would come out of my top. it was much, much worse before that fast but it is still really bad.
and, stands to reason, the puffier i am, the less energy i have. when i reach maximum stretch, i feel nauseous and i can hardly move.
Hv: The Jarrow formula looks the best.
thanks, i'll get it then
Hv: (cordyceps) Mmmmm.......caterpillar fungus
sorry, what? i didn't read that! i thought it was a mushroom? seriously??
if you can help me fix my puffiness, i vow to name my first born after you (luckily your real name isn't hveragerthi otherwise my child would probably be ten before it could reliably spell its own name)
thanks hv
- lulu
Hv: Check your basal body temperature. This is very accurate, especially combined with symptoms.
unfortunately i can't attest to the complete accuracy. i only had a digital thermometer (max temp 37 degrees) and apparently it beeps when it reaches the correct temp but i'm deaf so i can't hear it ;) so for the last few days, i just left it under my arm until it switched itself off.
Oh, you would do it in metric so I have to calculate the numbers.
Ok, got it. Based on the readings it does look like you are probably borderline hypothyroid. Possibly hypothyroid since the thermometer is only rated to 37C.
Hv: Puffy as in water retention?
puffy as in ridiculous water retention - or maybe i'm even just metabolising air. it is kinda like non-pitting edema (no indentation) but it is everywhere. and it fluctuates. for example, 2 years ago it took 3 months to get my blood drawn because my arms were so puffy - they ended up having to take it from my foot. every day i have a different level of puffiness - sometimes my fingers are so swollen i can't write, othertimes my feet are so swollen i can't wear shoes, and somedays i just don't have big enough underwear to even get dressed. and i have clothing in 3 different sizes. there is no apparent correlation (food, water, stress etc), it's just kinda random.
(i guess i could just buy clothes in stretchy, sweaty man-made fibres with elasticated waistbands and just wear hush puppies. but i think my brain would melt.)
before i did my big 36-day water fast to-completion, my puffiness was greatly exacerbated by any movement. if i went swimming, i either couldn't get my flippers off afterwards - or my breasts would puff up so much they would come out of my top.
Just tell the kiddies that these are your floatation devices.
it was much, much worse before that fast but it is still really bad.
and, stands to reason, the puffier i am, the less energy i have. when i reach maximum stretch, i feel nauseous and i can hardly move.
The water retention could put a strain on the heart as well, which could also explain part of the fatigue.
Hv: The Jarrow formula looks the best.
thanks, i'll get it then
Hv: (cordyceps) Mmmmm.......caterpillar fungus
sorry, what? i didn't read that! i thought it was a mushroom? seriously??
Yes, serious. Nobody told you that the real stuff is grown on caterpillar bodies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_fungus
"Caterpillar fungus — The are over 680 documented varieties of Cordyceps mushrooms. There are over 680 documented varieties of cordyceps, and one of the most well known varieties of these is Cordyceps sinensis. The Latin etymology describes cord as "club", ceps as "head", and sinensis as "from China". The mushroom is known in Tibetan as yartsa gunbu or yatsa gunbu.
Caterpillar fungi are the result of a parasitic relationship between the fungus Cordyceps and the larva of the ghost moth (Thitarodes), several species of which live on the Tibetan Plateau (Tibet, Qinghai, West-Sichuan, SW-Gansu & NW Yunnan, all in China, and the Himalayas India, Nepal, Bhutan). The fungus germinates in living organisms (in some cases the larvae), kills and mummifies the insect, and then the cordyceps grows from the body of the insect. It is known in the West as a medicinal mushroom and its use has a long history in Traditional Chinese medicine as well as Traditional Tibetan medicine.[1]"
if you can help me fix my puffiness, i vow to name my first born after you (luckily your real name isn't hveragerthi otherwise my child would probably be ten before it could reliably spell its own name)
Are you really sure the world could handle a Hveragerthi Minnie Me?
Actually it could be worse. I could have used the name of another town in Iceland, Kirkjubaejarklaustur. The name is bigger than the town.