Unfortunately such statements and agendas tend to inflame such situations.
The unconscious of man creates all problems. Divisions and conflict will persist as long as there are those that support an opposition to them... it helps them in continuing to be there... because they are in some way connected to each other. If you want to get rid of so-called radical-extremism, then you will have to get rid of the radical-extreme politician that is helping to create the other to be there for conflict to occur.
The tendency is for the two opposites to attract each other. The terrorists and the nationalist flag wavers both are extremists.
History continues to repeat itself because man continues to remain mostly unconscious. The extreme Christian politician and extreme Muslim cleric/politician are unconsciously drawing each other toward creating another holy war...
Jump off the coin altogether and one will be better able to avoid getting caught up into the fray. Man is first and foremost a human being... if he chooses to consider himself as such... But most consider themselves something else to be first and foremost... a white man, a black man, a red man, an American, an Englishman, a Canadian, a Jew, a Mohammedan, a Christian, a Democrat or a Republican, a businessman, a soldier, a teacher, a scientist or a lawyer... And being a human being is not a consideration at all... it was not even on the list.
When the first step is missed, all the other steps are missed as well.
Turiya, you sentiments are laudable and they sing to the days of peace, love, brother and sisterhood and spiritual awakening, but that is a make believe world to aspire to live in, but a far cry from the one that we are living in and will have to deal with for the forseeable future.
Maybe someday we can all sit down together with mutual respect and hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but not this day and not this age. In today's real world when you have groups of people who are taught that it is their rights to kill the infidels and rule the world, other groups who believe all outside their chosen few are less than humans - mere cattle who do not deserve to live and can be lied to at will, power hungry dictators, and a global shadow elite that spans generations who seeks to control everything we think, say and do . . . . man, it just gets really hard to put much faith in what should be when you see what really is.
On the one hand. our country is now a far, far cry from the land of liberty and freedom envisioned by our forefathers. Yet on the other, throughout history the loss of a strong nationalism has been a sure sign of the end of that civilization.
And so, the real hope for our future in the short term is a combination of both America Love it or Leave It AND America, Change it of Lose it.
DQ
Turiya, you sentiments are laudable and they sing to the days of peace, love, brother and sisterhood and spiritual awakening, but that is a make believe world to aspire to live in, but a far cry from the one that we are living in and will have to deal with for the forseeable future.
Maybe someday we can all sit down together with mutual respect and hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but not this day and not this age. In today's real world when you have groups of people who are taught that it is their rights to kill the infidels and rule the world, other groups who believe all outside their chosen few are less than humans - mere cattle who do not deserve to live and can be lied to at will, power hungry dictators, and a global shadow elite that spans generations who seeks to control everything we think, say and do . . . . man, it just gets really hard to put much faith in what should be when you see what really is.
On the one hand. our country is now a far, far cry from the land of liberty and freedom envisioned by our forefathers. Yet on the other, throughout history the loss of a strong nationalism has been a sure sign of the end of that civilization.
And so, the real hope for our future in the short term is a combination of both America Love it or Leave It AND America, Change it of Lose it.
DQ
Yes, DQ, I am in agreement with you. Just look at what the lack of a strong nationalism did to the Native American Indians. It made it easy for them to be nearly exterminated by white people. Those ‘real’ nations of peoples… the ‘real’ Americans know all too well the dictates of what you preach… “America, love it, or leave it” and “Changing it…” well, I don’t think that was their way, either… and so, yeah, they did lose it… to those that had forefathers with visions of ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom’ fairies dancing in their heads… with sentiments singing spiritualistic-like phrases like ‘inalienable rights’ and “in God we Trust”… I think I remember reading it somewhere… didn’t they hold hands and sing Kumbaya with each other when they created this country… and then, again before their ancestors slaughtered countless Native American Indians. I thought that is where that all came from…. Oh well, could be that's my bad.
The truth of the matter is:
At the periphery, your ‘good citizen joe’ is a Napoleon, a Hitler, a Stalin, a Ghengis Chan, and all the politicians, and all the other mad people of the world… at the periphery we are a miniature of all that. Each of us have the whole history of aggression and violence, oppression, slavery. At the periphery, remember, each of us is the history that belongs to this world. Each one of us holds that human heritage with us.
You are just as much a slave to your society as the others you are pointing your finger at have been slaves to their society. They are just as miserable as you are. Just look at tomi444. His reaction to the implication that he may also be somewhat unconscious. See the hatred, the violence the anger, the desire for revenge is there inside also… it is there just waiting for someone to come along and scratch his skin … just looking and waiting for ways so all that crap can jump out and be expressed… you, too, are also sitting on your own volcano.
It is easier to see it in others than it can be seen in oneself. Because your two eyes are continuously pointing outwardly.
As long as humanity has lived, it has lived in millions of wrong ways. Wandered and missed, committed countless sins and abominations, murders, wars, indignations, exploitations, oppressions, dominations, rapes… and you have been part to it… you are also responsible for it. tomi444 is also responsible for it, rokybird and myself and all the rest here and everywhere.
If anything, most everyone needs big time therapy rather that to be mistreated further. Problem is there are aren’t enough therapists sane enough to treat such a world-wide epidemic of mentally ill people. Hey, how ‘bout everyone being there own therapist. Maybe just a daily midday nap for the masses may be just what is needed to fix the mess... – call it meditative rest period... Tantrums of violence would no doubt decrease.
If you don’t want to be a slave, to be oppressed, to be manipulated, to be treated as an object by the society, then you will have to start by not wanting to enslave others, oppress others, to manipulate and control or want to treat another as an object, to not want to kill the other. Starting with yourself and then it will be easier to not have the society do these things to you.
Rallying around nationalism may be good as it disperses this violence away from its own members to a certain degree and directs it at an altogether different group of people… from another society…in other countries (and in this one). Societies want their people to be juiced in such ways. It diverts the attention of the problems somewhere else. Look at what 9/11 had done so successfully.
But if society's members are not involved in a spirited nationalism… if there is no nationalist movement to bind people together, to blind people together, this violence would again be directed back at its own members… because the unconscious revenge seeks expression. It is a natural endpoint for all oppressed and repressed energies to culminate to. And the leaders and the vested interests of society do not want it members looking at them will eyes that clearly see the root causes.
What you are calling the ‘real’ world, for me it is what I call the ‘unreal’ world… it is just a bad dream and with each passing day is becoming more and more a ‘real’ living nightmare.
“…the only hope for our future …” Another well-conditioned masochist, I see… do you really want this crap to continue?
‘Hope’ is another one of those empty, hollow, and over used words… ‘hope’ in this context is used to mean ‘to postpone’… and to not really do anything at all, so the nightmare can continue… to go on missing, committing countless sins, murders, wars, indignations, exploitations, oppressions, dominations, rapes… and you will continue to support it… and to be part of it.
It is difficult to be free of the society. It is very difficult to break away from the crowd, to break away from the fictions of “we” and “our ” … identities that the individual loses himself in… which helps to keep one from encountering oneself face to face... one can continue with the unreal-ness of this 'real' nightmare if one feels he is not alone, he can lose himself easier in a crowd. That is what the 'we' is for. It is difficult to peel away the centuries old, rotten layers of conditioned habits… to walk alone on a path no one else has walked before… without a road map to lead you on.
To even consider such an undertaking for even an atomic second sends one reeling and grasping for some sort of rock for stability. To be anchored in the knowledge that you cling to and claim to be your own.
Because mind is not your own. It is a social product. Mind carries all the germs of the past. All the diseases of the past. All the ugliness of the past. Because mind belongs to the collective.
It is what is known. it keeps one seemingly safe, secure and quite dead… alive in a kind of walking dead society. Always ready to follow the well-trodden path. That is why history repeats itself.
To take on that responsibility that is involved with being aware is too much of a task to take on. Because one would have to pass through seeing that this ugliness is inside himself. And it is too painful to look at it. Easier to continue vomiting the misunderstanding on the fellow next to you rather than spend a small atomic moment to look at yourself. To me, that is a future I don’t care to help support… to help create and maintain it for another tomorrow.
And so, DQ, to jump out of the loop there are two problems that have to be resolved in order to become free from the effects of the society.
The first comes from the society. It is to drop all that ideas that you have accumulated about yourself. All the images of yourself that have been given to you by society.
The society wants to dominate. The privileged classes want to dominate, to oppress, to exploit. They would like you to remain completely unaware of yourself. This is the first difficulty. And one has to be born in a society.
The parents are a part of the society. The teachers are part of the society. The priests are part of the society. The society is everywhere all around you. It seems really impossible. How to escape? How to find a door back to nature? You are enclosed from everywhere…
Second difficulty comes from your own self. Because you would also like to oppress, to dominate. You would also like to possess, to be powerful.
It involves dropping the ego. This is even deeper difficulty than the first. You can avoid society, but how to avoid your own ego?
It is not so easy thing to do. One will become quite afraid. Because one will not know who he is. And one may even go mad in the process.
But one is already mad. Look at tomi. His response shows his madness. His eyes red with rage … his mind have already painted me as the enemy. He does not know me. But to protect his precious treasure… his precious ego… he is ready to kill me for the mere suggestion that he may be a bit unconscious. And the rest here are the same.
Peace to you, DQ
The sins of the fathers are not my sins. I can't speak for those who came before who committed genocide against the native Americans, stole the lands from Mexico, commanded the slave ships or, even futher back, robbed, pillaged and raped throughout history from the day man took his first steps.
I have no argument that such things have occured in abundance - but I was not there and so it is not my place nor my burden to atone for them. Possessing no time machine, nor as far as I can tell a genetic karmic debt, I am only responsible for my own actions I choose to take, or for my inactions, during my brief span of years on this green and blue planet.
No doubt we are a conflicted group of omnivores - not completely aggressive meat eaters and yet not plant eaters either, still adapting and developing, who continue to have traits of aggressiveness, jealousy, greed, etc. that pull at all of us. How we react to those urges is what frames our lives.
As for myself, I can only make my far from perfect attempt to treat my fellow man as best I can, helping more and harming less and realize that in the end the measure of a person's life is not the goods they accumulate, but cumulative good they achieve.
It is, as you say, an individual journey and I agree that is the place to begin. Meanwhile the world keeps turning and if we lose sight of the tides of man sweeping about us while we have are on our spirit quest we will find ourselves swept under as have the millions of victims before us.
I do not desire to be the oppressor, neither do I desire to be the victim. It is quite fine to have your lofty head in the clouds, but in the real world, you best keep your feet on the ground too.
DQ
Yes, after that nice musica interlude... I can say "Well said DQ". I have no argument with you on what you say.
As long as one submerges himself into the collective "we", the chance that the baggage of the past will come along with is a probable likelihood, at least to some degree. Until enough of the members of that collective take their heads out of the clouds and plant their feet firmly on the ground, the mob mind that is nestled close to its animal heritage roots of the past will tend to 'react' as opposed to 'respond' to situations as they arise.
I prefer to use the word 'respond', in reference to the spontaneous use one's intelligence as opposed to the habitual use of an implanted social conscience within the intellect. 'React' seems to be analogous with a 'knee jerk' type of reaction, that is basically automated and robot-like in its nature, to the countless number of situations that are to be encountered. For many, to access this intelligence, this may require the removal of several decades of accumulated dust.
Thank you for your response, DQ. :)
turiya.-_-.
If you ever bothered to read posts and information all the way through instead of reject it according to the title or first couple of sentences that disagree with your pre-conceived notions you would not make such a clueless post!
The conspiracy is obvious, but you have to bring your head into the light and open your eyes. Yes, a few "people" are evil, the rest of us are imperfect humans, often easily led astray, who struggle with our values and actions in the journey we call life. It is my optimistic view that people are more good than they are evil, but the ones who are more evil than good are more determined for the most part. The most evil ones of all are not only more determined, they have a plan that they has been in the works for generations. I don't expect you to ever figure it out because that would require actually taking an objective look whereas you seem to have already made your mind up about everything and everyone and aren't going to let something like history and facts get in the way.
The statute of limitations could also be called the sigh of scoundrels, though I will agree that at some point, say after a full generation or two, you have to consider the status quo perhaps more than past history.
Did you say Law School? Are you an attorney? And you claim not to know about the conspiracy? Come on now, fess up. Tell us what the BAR is all about, and the adminstrative courts operating under the color of law as opposed to constitutional courts acting in accordance with our unalienable rights? Tell about that gold fringe on the flags and the difference between an attorney and a member of the bar. Fess up about your first allegiance being not to your clients, but to the court itself. Tell us what "humans and other animals" means and how the courts really have no jurisdiction unless they trick us into a "contract" we don't know we entered into. Tell us why Dun and Bradstreet lists courts and state offices as "For Profit Corporations". I could go on here . . . .
DQ
"Man is either a smart ape or a divine incarnation depending on the state of his consciousness..."
With this notion there leaves no possibility for growth. It can be understood differently.
Man can be considered to be a bridge. The link that connects the animal to the divine. Out of all the animals, he is the only one born with the potential to become a divine being. His roots lay within his animal heritage. Moving toward the divine is only a possibility. He may choose to realize that potential possibility or choose to remain at some other point along that bridge. It is entirely up to him.
"Even if you consider yourself to be a part of the Divine that does not make it so."
The potential is there, nevertheless. It is all up to each individual to actualize it or not. The problem is in overcoming the conditioning of the society. All societies condition the individual to believe that reaching to the divine is not a possibility. Such an individual poses a threat to the society. Such individuals are dangerous. That is why they are put down... poisoned, murdered or crucified. It is because these people are the the most rebellious of all. And that rebelliousness can become contagious with others.
"But since it is impossible except for a rare few to achieve that state it really doesnt belong in a discussion of politics."
On this point I disagree. Such individuals have always created a problems for the societies that create politicians. Pontius Pilate, being a representative of the Roman Empire made probably the most important political decision of his career in ordering the crucifixion of a man like Jesus.
This may just be a parable as far as I know. But the enlightened have always been feared by governments throughout history. Socrates was poisoned for corrupting the minds of the youth according to the politicians of the Greek government.
And so it is the politics of the societies of the world that seek to eliminate these people whenever they arise. To keep their exploited members from finding out about such people. And to ensure that the possibility of such people ever arising again is kept at an absolute minimum. And the way they do it is through the conditioning of the child.
Like I have said previously, the society conditions the individual so that he can be easily controlled, manipulated and exploited. You have been conditioned to 'believe' that it is impossible to happen for you. Hence you are following the dictates of the society. Perhaps, in your case, the conditioning has been for the most part a success.
"Religion (not spiritual practice) is just an excuse people use for gaining power over others and is little more than a mass delusion which very often turns into violence.
All religions should be viewed as potentially radical extremist political philosophies whose goals are antithetical to Freedom and Justice."
"The threat of radical religious groups to ones freedoms should never be underestimated."
Agreed. The established so-called religions of the world are tied to the governments and they both work together to control and exploit individuals. The priests of the world are the most unholy of people. They have nothing to do with any real religiousness. Nothing to do with increasing awareness. Everything to do with keeping the masses in a drunken stupor of beliefs. Nothing to do with freedom of any kind. And everything to do with keeping man bound in a psychological prison of his own making.
"...Whatever is your habit in this moment is not wrong. It is simply a beginning. No habit is necessary but it is only tending to persist, because it has not yet been replaced by further growth..."
Its as simple as asking oneself: “Why am I wanting to be such a masochist… in destroying and hurting my own body-mind? Don't I love myself?” It becomes less difficult to move on.
I have heard that the best way to quit smoking is to simply become more watchful of yourself breathing the smoke in and exhaling the smoke out... without thinking about anything, just simply watch your breath and the smoke and the holding of the cigarette... Make it a kind of meditation... no thoughts, only witnessing the activity. Sooner or later one comes to see what this activity is doing to the health and well-being of the body and mind. It simply is a question then of asking "why do I want to do this to my own body? Why breathe in smoke rather than fresh air?" And then, of course, on a more subtle level is the chemical addiction and the consequences... "Is this any way to treat my body? ...don't i love my body... do I really love myself? Or don't I?"
Thanks for sharing. Who's Avatar?