Whoa...

PB - "I sense that you don't discriminate between mineral/nutrient forms, and that you believe problems are more associated with the body's inability to neutralize, absorb, or eliminate for whatever reason."

grz - Oh, but I do discriminate, please do not misunderstand... High quality food and water the way nature intended absolutely first and foremost; I have posted that more times than I can count. Yes, I DO believe that problems are due to the inability to neutralize, absorb, or eliminate, among other things like being able to utilize what the body absorbs CORRECTLY. Where the problem lies is in getting adequate nutrition with the state of our food and water these days... given the toxic load we are forced to bear, the body's nutritional need is even greater than perhaps it ever was... the trick, or should I say mystery, is how to do that in such a way that balance is maintained and one does not do more damage than good.

PB - "I strongly believe that there are incorrect forms of minerals/nutrients that can indeed accumulate within the extracellular spaces of the body or that forced metabolism can be detrimental to health -- even with individuals that possess an ability to better handle these forms."

grz - There are minerals and elements that are good for us in food form that when isolated from plant, rock, or synthesized, and then combined with other minerals/elements, can become toxic... the chemical industry does this all the time. An isolated, or synthetic supplement can become toxic to a user, absolutely doing more harm than good. I am totally against the use of the synthetic; no question. Even IF someone does the "supplemental" or "wrong form" damage though I do not believe all hope is lost. There are always ways to remediate the problem through understanding the created toxicities and/or deficiencies and applying the correct nutritional needs required to clean the mess up. It is a shame that medicine did not move in this direction yet... perhaps some day. I think that the "wrong form" can be just that IF the consumer is not capable of using/dealing with the "form" adequately with the necessary co-factors needed to "utilize" the form, assuming it is absorbed. Metabolic dysfunction.

PB - "Just to clarify, that is NOT to say there is an "excess". You misunderstand. Its an excess in the wrong place and of the wrong type. If anything, there's a deficiency of real calcium the body can and should have to use. Referring back to my grandmother's case, she's the poster granny for this scenario. And I'm suggesting that her obsession with consuming the wrong kind mineral/nutient could in fact be a large factor in her failing health. So in essence it could be calcium's fault -- calcium of the wrong form."

Ah, okay... I see this now. Not an excess... the body needs the calcium, but is unable to utilize or process it correctly and put it in its place... In this case, in my opinion, we are then dealing perhaps with a magnesium, vitamin D, EFA, K2, metabolic (metabolic dysfunction that may need corrected even if co-factors are in place), or other co-factor deficiency, or perhaps a calcium or calcium co-factor metabolic disruptor like fluoride, or too much phosphoric acid from too many colas, etc.

PB - "I don't subscribe to the notion that "a mineral is a mineral is a mineral"

grz- - calcium is calcium, what makes it "different" is whether it is taken in an isolated supplement or a calcium rich food... in a calcium rich food it is eaten in a complexed form that shares with the consumer by default all the necessary and required (assuming the plants mineral metabolism is good) co-factors needed to place the calcium where it belongs within the consumer. IF the body needs calcium, and the user IS using an isolated supplement, the body will sacrifice necessary co-factors and acids needed to pull it in and then create a usable form... and this is what becomes problematic. This can only continue so long before the co-factors required with using an isolated form are exhausted and the isolated supplement then becomes more of a toxin or waste product in the body and the diminishing or total lack of needed co-factors make what may have been a rather small concern a much larger one as now we are dealing with multiple deficiencies.

PB - "I believe there is an optimum to what each organism consumes and that necessitates the organism to make good choices."

grz - I absolutely agree with that statement...

PB - "I'm afraid your approach tends to blame and theorize about co-factors and environmental influences as primary causation, but to me that takes some health empowerment and responsibility away from the individual and also accepts the idea that we could all be eating rocks if all of these balances were in harmony."

grz - I am not blaming anything... I understand full well that there are checks and balances. Industrialized man made many choices in the last century, some of them enabled (if statistics are to be believed) the greater majority of the population in industrialized nations to increase their "average" longevity across the social classes; this of course taking into account declining infant mortality rates for a time.

But this did come with a price... quality of life in later years in some (perhaps most cases now) cases. Everything is a trade off; no good or bad. Environmental stressors, whether they be man made chemicals, or a nutritional deficiency or many, are primary causation for disease in my opinion... these environmental stressors include INDIVIDUAL choices in the way one lives or chooses to eat. Life has always been, and will always be about choices...

Eating rocks alone would not create this balance now would it :-) that was a rather interesting comment; you are trying to read into what I am writing too much :-) I only used the mud pie/cookie eating peoples, and rock eating woman to stress a point, not to say it is okay for everyone in the normal course of living; absolutely not. However, given no other choice and to increase rate of survival among the species, in certain cases it may become necessary, just as eating bugs may become necessary... no big deal and really, bugs are quite nutritious. One does what one does to survive, however, I have had this discussion with many people and most would starve while looking at an abundance of "free" (one would have the cost of harvesting and preparing it) edible food and sources of nutrition, right out their front door... this amazes me.

My wife, and everyone I know, and have ever known, even as a child, all know without doubt, that if the world were to fall into pieces and there was mass die off, unless I was killed outright in the chaos or fighting, I would be a survivor and fight tooth and nail for that survival... even if that meant eating weeds, bugs, and dirt... that is me.

PB - "Its certainly fascinating that the presence of excess fluoride hampers the absorption of calcium, or that in some cases a large amount of calcium can neutralize acidity and thus disease; or that imbalance potentials exist due to environment, but all this is rather irrelevant if you believe health and longevity principles are simple. I most certainly do."

grz - I agree with you... health and longevity principles are VERY simple. In fact, most people go to great expense and effort when the answer is most often both cheap and readily available.

For instance, many people go for magnesium supplements and/or MSM when Epsom Salt in small absorbable doses throughout the day will most likely fill the needs of both for one low price of less the $4 for 6 pounds or so; price of course dependent on quantity purchased and brand... Another example is copper and iron, which BSM can take care of nicely OR a good dose of beef liver. I would rather go these routes than supplements. For one, eating is more enjoyable, for another, it is already in a complexed form with the needed co-factors and does not tax the mineral/element stores of my body. I think I have stated that in many ways over the years...

PB - "Obeying the parameters of your own innate physiological capability will bring all these balances and correct synergies back, and you will be able to fend off bad environment. Toxic environments have always existed (whether human created or not) and its simply a choice to avoid or be incredibly vigilant in your life if you choose to endure. But above all, if you make good decisions in what and how you nutritionally sustain yourself, you can overcome most toxic environments. So really, we are "out of whack" mostly by our own choice."

grz - ABSOLUTELY, and the point I have been trying to make forever, as convoluted as it may be to some... HOWEVER, as is the case with the non-ambulatory cows in the recent beef industry fiasco, who were victims of their "uncontrollable" environment, I am afraid, not everyone has the means, or the resources, to prevent the inevitable health problems that may come due to uncontrollable environmental influences, or their lot in life, as easily as you may think. One example is the government and industrial discrimination that occurs on classes of people. In my city ALL of the toxic accidents happen in the industrial districts, which happen to be built in areas of housing blight and poverty, including most all government housing projects, etc. which weighs VERY heavy on the poor with an uncontrollable toxic load that is dumped on the poorer classes, who can ill afford to purchase organic, nutrient dense foods, and who rarely have ANY land on which to plant and/or raise their own food. That is where the knowledge of affordable, readily available options, like Epsom Salts , bulk kelp, or BSM, is extremely beneficial, and why I find ML, Ted at earthclinic, and others such as the author of weed medicine so valuable to people these days... knowledge is empowering... It is easy for someone who may have a few hundred dollars of expendable income a month to search out and find ways to improve their diet through foods, including "superfoods" and supplements, quite another problem for someone with little or no income.

So really, I do not think that we are "mostly out of whack by our own choice". The choices were made for us by the many previous generations actions and the subsequent creation of industrialized culture (both good and bad), AND through taught/learned behavior from our parents (margarine is better, hydrogenated oils, refined salt & sugars, alcohol, doctors know best, OTCs, pharmaceuticals, a loss of homeopathy, herbal knowledge, etc.) AND yes, to a certain extent, our own poor choices when we should know better, we are out of whack.

PB - "This is not to say all this Science and study is not useful. It certainly can be, but for many in this world its a tool for exploitation and ego aggrandizement. ;-)"

grz - agreed; you said a mouthful :-)

later,

grz-