See that' why I beleive you are so demented. You are too ignorant nad misinformed to ignore. I mean hell you've had a bunch of people pipe in on how mesed up you r logic is ..

thye chime in once or twice and do see how futile it is to deal with someone like you rself. I for one will continue to show you both sides of every issue.

As for Ren,how sad that you would find it a compliment to be assocaited with this man.

And one thing,and I do mean this with all due respect Ren, but I have been in the field of bodybuiding since the 70's and good luck on your attempt on attainig you r goals on a raw vegetarian diet. It is one of the hardest things to do. There are very few examples of succesful bodybuilders who adapt that lifestyle and those few examples also took anabolic steroids.

I know Stephen Arlin(Raw power) is a raw vegan,but he is also naturally a big guy,yet he has no definition or any real muscle mass to speak of. I would love to know his fat to muscle ratio.