SCIENCE: How do we know that stones are formed inside liver?
Forum: Liver Flush FAQ
- SCIENCE: How do we know that stones are formed inside liver? R by #163532
Liver Flush FAQ
How do we know that stones are formed inside liver?
Why aren't doctors aware of the fact that stones are formed inside liver?
If you don't want to be aware of something, then you just don't want, and nobody can help with that.
Are there any data that prove fact that stones are formed inside liver?
A lot, if you want to search for it.
A friend of mine, Lillian, was working in a hospital in Oslo where surgeries are performed daily.
She has seen files of hundreds of patients who came back with a pain, stone lodged inside common bile duct, AFTER gallbladder was removed some times ago.
She has even read files of people who were coming back 7 times for the same procedure, once every year!
Where do their stones come from? Gallbladder that was removed 7 years ago?
I have read several stories of people suffering from the stone lodged inside common bile duct, sometimes just a few days after surgery, sometimes years after surgery.
The only place where those stones could have been formed is inside bile ducts.
If it is intrahepatic bile ducts, or it is common bile duct, we don't know, but most likely it is intrahepatic bile ducts.
Regardless, the fact is, bile ducts can hold bile, bile can become stagnant, and stones can be formed inside bile ducts.
If you are unable to understand this, or to accept this, then I can't help you.
Do you need more proof that stones are formed inside liver?
Why aren't doctors aware of the fact that stones are formed inside liver?
There are 3 possible answers:
1. They are stupid and unable to make that conclusion (most likely not).
2. They are smart but they don't want to risk loosing patients or don't want to go against the mainstream.
3. They are smart but someone told them not to think too much about that, if they want to keep their job.
You pick the answer(s) that most likely describes your doctor.
Few stories: (Read it!)
Subject: Re: Re: Liver cleanse w/ parasite and Colon Cleanse while breastfeeding
From: Lisa < Lisa >
Date: 11:38 Jan 05 2002
> Do you, as health profesional, have any contact with people after surgery ?
My job is to assist the doctor, with images, while doing the surgery. I really don't inter-act with the patient much after sugery except for an occasional post op film. I can tell you about the surgery itself since I am there through the whole thing and can watch on the tv screen (laproscope) while the gallbladder is removed.
I am an x-ray tech and I run a c-arm during surgery. The c-arm is a mobile florascopy machine that takes real time images of the body so the doctor can check for problems in the bile ducts. It does the same thing as the machines used in the x-ray department for upper and lower gi's. After removing the gallbladder the doctor will inject contrast media (dye) in to the bile ducts which causes them to show up on x-ray. This is usually done after the actual removal of the (usually healthy looking)gallbladder. The thing that concerns me most about this procedure is that it is routinely done on very young people, early 20's and younger. Some doctors are very rough with the contents of a persons abdomen. Pulling and tugging on your insides like that can't be good, not to mention the cauterizer, it actually burns the tissue that holds the gallbladder to the liver to prepare for it's removal. It is not a proceedure that I want to go through!
> Do you know of any negative side efect of surgery ?
There are negative side effects to all surgeries! I believe in avoiding surgery at all cost. I have seen some real doctor "flub ups" on pt's. Sometimes, though rare, fistulas are formed between organs after surgery or they can be spontaineous for someone who is very ill. One very serious case was a woman with a fistula between her lung and colon. The doctor discovered this situation while the pt was undergoing a lower gi and started coughing up barium. Pretty gross, huh? She had also been complaining of very bad breath. This was a case where the woman had surgery on her colon and in the process of healing itself the body formed a fistula.
I can't say that I have any clinically proven things I can tell you but I do know a young woman who had her gallbladder removed a few years ago. She is in the ER quit often with chest and abdominal pain. I can't say that this is a result of her gallbladder surgery, but I highly suspect it is, considering she is in her early 20's and otherwise very healthy.
> Does it happens that people come again for surgery, because of stones inside bile ducts ?
Well, stones in the bile ducts is a common occurence. In a county community of around 40,000 people our department does about 10 ercp's a week. About half of those have a stone in the bile ducts. Some have had gallbladder removal and some have not. So with or without gallbladder removal stones are still a problem. Why remove the gallbladder if it won't solve the problem! duh!!!
> Do you know what percentage of people develop irritable bowel syndrome after gallbladder surgery ?
I really wouldn't know about this one but the woman I mentioned earlier does have collitis.
> Do you know if there is any link between gallbladder surgery and heart diseases - heart attack ?
I wish I knew, but it would make sense that this could happen considering the contents of gallstones. Gallstones being a sign of bad diet choices.
The truth about healthcare is that most people see a specialist for this surgery and after the gallbladder is removed they usually go back to thier family doctor and are referred to another specialist for diffrent problems, so tracking the connections would be almost impossible.
I hope this info helps.
Subject: possible stone in bile duck
From: andrea < email@example.com >
Date: Today 12:46 Feb 22 2002
I have been experienc pain which is similar to the discomfort I had when I
had my gallbladder out. My doctor thinks it's a stone from my liver
which is lodged in my bile duck. he ordered a cat scan which is scheduled
for march 1.
what kind of advise can you give me? is there anyway i can get rid of
this with a fast or something?
>Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:46:28 -0800
>From: Steve Barwick
>I did indeed end up having my GB removed surgically. The GB attacks
>were just coming too fast and too furiously, several times a day. It
>got to the point where absolutely nothing could stop them. I tried
>everything imaginable. But I ended up in the ER for the third time on
>Dec. 10th, screaming in agony. I had not been able to eat anything
>other than a few swallows of soup each day for the past 20 days. And
>even trying to drink a glass of water would cause an attack, so I was
>completely dehydrated. I just couldn't go on like that any longer.
>I had the GB surgery the 13th. But the attacks continued unabated for
>the next seven days because the surgeon had left a stone in the ducts!
>So, I had to have the ERCP procedure on the 21st to have the stone
>removed. What a mess!
>I am still having problems with pain in the right side under the rib
>cage, and of course the doctors are at a loss as to how to explain it
>all. Plus, there is still a lot of digestive upset after eating. (The
>doctors are probably going to test my pancreas next, to make sure it is
>producing enzymes correctly.) Plus, I am having sharp pains just below
>the sternum, which they think may be a hiatal hernia.
>Anyway, it has been a nightmare, and I will write about it more
>extensively to the gallstone support group as soon as I am a bit more
>recovered. Right now I still have overwhelming fatigue, and difficulty
>in thinking. I used to work 10-15 hour days, but now even two hours
>completely wipes me out. My opinion is that the anesthesia from the
>first surgery on the 13th, and the drugs used for the ERCP procedure on
>the 21st, combined to caused some problems within my brain. And there
>may be thyroid problems, now, too, because I am very fatigued and my
>hands are cold all the time. I will tell the gallstone group how
>important it is not to wait as long as I did before doing the
>alternative methods for saving the gallbladder. I sure wish I hadn't
>hesitated for three months. By the time I finally did the flush, my GB
>was just too far gone.
>Anyway, at this point my greatest suspicion is that my liver is
>dysfunctional, so I am reading Dr. Sandar Cabot's material on liver
>cleansing, and starting on her supplement regimen.
>Thanks again for your kindness,
Subject: Re: Re: Re: need help before ERCP
From: Adrienne < firstname.lastname@example.org >
Date: 22:05 Jan 24 2002
Two weeks after my GB surgery, I did my first liver cleanse. I'm a 44 yr. old female. I was still having "attacks." My surgeon said I needed an ERCP because he thought I still had a stone stuck in the common bile duct. I didn't want to go through another medical procedure, so I did the liver cleanse. I was in severe pain if I ate any fat. The first cleanse brought immediate relief- I followed Dr. Hulda Clark 's cleanse exactly and passed many stones. Two weeks later I did another cleanse and I've been pain free and symptom free ever since. I've done a total of 6 cleanses and am still passing stones. I don't know how to answer your questions about taking your medications, but I do know that the cleanse will flush out any stone in the common bile duct. I would think that an ERCP would be able to diagnose a more severe problem--like one involving the pancreas--one person posted that they had a stone stuck in the pancreas, and needed more surgery.
Subject: need help before ERCP
From: midget < email@example.com >
Date: 11:05 Jan 24 2002 | REPLY |¤| All Messages |
I am scheduled for an ERCP this coming Tues.29th, but would like some help. I was hospitalized in Dec with gallstone attack, since then still having pain, lots of it. Dr believes one is stuck in common bile duct wants to do ERCP. Can I do this flush while in pain? Do I need to do the parasite flush first? I'm running out of time. Had a miserable time sleeping last night with pain. I don't know what to eat so I don't experience so much pain. Help. Had gallbladder removed back in 94. Please help
Subject: Re: possible stone in bile duck
From: Easygoin < Easygoin >
Date: * 20:54 Feb 22 2002
I'm going through the same thing right now! My gallbladder was removed 5 years ago.
Try the gallbladder flush....everyone else here has....with amazing results! Did the "flush" last Saturday and passed hundreds (you'll believe it when you do it) of stones! Gonna do it again this weekend. You should repeat it every 2 - 3 weeks until you've got them all out.
Let the doctors take care of it, and you could end up with more problems than you've got now! There's a story somewhere on this site (can't remember where I found it) from a woman whose biliary duct was "nicked" during surgery. Very touchy surgery! Once it's damaged, she claims, there's no remedy. She's been to doctors and courtrooms for year.....all to no avail!
Again, you can pay thousands at the hospital and take the risk.....or you can do it yourself at home the safe way for about ten dollars. You'll find 8000 + testamonies here from people who have done it successfully! If you don't get relief after 2 or 3 attempts.....then go to the doctor!
More than a few people here have already "lost" their gallbladder, as have I, and are experiencing reoccurence of the original symptoms that the doctors only TEMPORARILY relieved us of by "maming" our bodies! That's why we're doing the "flush" now.....and getting results! It really SOUNDS harder (more complicated) than it is.....but you've got to go through it the first time to see that!
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- Hypothesis: stones formed inside liver bile ducts by UserX
A hypothesis was that you need something to block bile ducts in order to get thousands of stones formed inside liver bile ducts (intrahepatic bile ducts).
What could that something be?
Liver fluke or some other parasite?
Stone formed inside gallbladder, that exited gallbladder, and then blocked common bile duct, stopping bile flow altogether?
I don't think that in most people any of those was the cause of formation of intrahepatic stones.
Because Liver flukes, tumors and Gallstones blocking common bile duct are rare, but intrahepatic stones are common.
Important facts about healthy liver and gallbladder function:
There is no air inside liver, bile ducts or gallbladder. Those organs can either hold bile, or stones, or parasites or are empty - flat. No air.
When there is bile inside those organs, that bile cannot exit those organs unless those organs "agree"!
It is your liver that "decides" when will it release bile that have been produced by liver and that is in that moment inside intrahepatic bile ducts.
It is your liver that "decides" how much more bile will be produced, based on needs.
Liver makes that "decision" only when fatty or bitter (Cholagogues) foods (or drink or herbs) enter your mouth and/or stomach or when fatty or bitter foods are already inside intestines (like in case of coffee enema).
It is your gallbladder that "decides" when will it allow bile to enter it, buy using it's "muscles" to enlarge itself and to make lower pressure inside, and in that way "invite" bile to enter it.
Gallbladder makes that "decision" only when liver decides to produce more bile and let it go out - down to gallbladder.
It is your gallbladder that "decides" when will it allow bile to exit it, buy squeezing itself - relaxing some muscles and contracting other kind of muscles, and producing higher pressure inside, and in that way pushing bile out.
Gallbladder makes that "decision" when fatty or bitter foods are entering duodenum, or when fatty or bitter foods are already inside intestines (like in case of coffee enema).
All those "decisions" are (of course) made automatically by brain - central nervous system, but it is easier to understand liver and gallbladder function if we think about those organs as about smart organs with it's own brain.
So, what are those organs able to do, and what not?
Liver is actually able to keep bile inside intrahepatic bile ducts, is able to reabsorb water from that bile, and is able to not let bile it go to the gallbladder, and is able to produce stones.
Water is most important liquid inside our body.
Almost all organs and tissues have ability to exchange water.
Gallbladder is able to keep bile inside, is able to reabsorb water from bile (read: make it ready to form stones), and is able to produce stones.
If bile is stagnant, stones may become forming.
If bile is without enough water, stones may become forming.
If bile is without enough bile salts, stones may become forming.
Pregnancy, stress, fear, fasting, thirst, overweight ...lack of fat, ...lack of lecithin... you name it...
Pregnancy can significantly affect bile flow!
Stress can significantly affect bile flow!
Being overweight can significantly affect bile flow!
Have you ever been undertaking an exam? Remember stress? Remember fear?
How about stress of trying to do things on time for 10 or 20 or 40 or 60 years? (Trying to get to your job on time, trying to finish job on time, ...stress ... stress ...hurry ...no time ...run...against ...clock)
How about stress of traveling. Have you ever been traveling, and been constipated for 2 days?
Why aren't intestines letting things go out?
How about stress of acute disease. Have you ever been sick, and not eating or drinking much for 2 days?
To produce stones inside liver, all you need is stagnant bile.
You don't need Liver flukes, tumors and gallstones blocking common bile duct.
To produce stones inside kidney, all you need is stagnant urine - thirst.
Decrease your water consumption, and sooner or later small crystals will form ... you don't need urinary tract parasites or tumors...
And, by the way, of over 15 people without gallbladder, who did cleanse (that I know or have read or heard about), there was 0 without stones.
The first "stones-free cleanse" was after doing 10 cleanses or more...
And, why doesn't doctor's know about how common are liver stones - intrahepatic stones?
What are the symptoms? Poor digestion? Well, poor digestion is common, but nobody treats it.
90% of people have no strong symptoms.
Very few people have pain symptoms? Symptoms like shoulder pain, allergies and asthma are still rare and are not linked to intrahepatic stones.
Who has interest in this knowledge entering medical university?
The answer is the same as on question why don't doctors learn about herbal medicine, or about diet, or about vitamins, or homeopathy?
Who's got interest?
Big Pharma? NO.
Big Pharma decides what doctors will learn, and what doctors may practice and what will enter university!
Big Pharma gives money for research!
Just my opinion.
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- Re: Hypothesis: stones formed inside liver bile ducts by UserX
Treatment of Gallstones(calculi) inside Liver.
"To date ten patients have been treated with laser lithotripsy (LLT)."
"With thorough intrahepatic endoscopy, bilateral calculi were found in all
patients (10), demonstrating the futility of hepatic resection for this
Treatment of primary intrahepatic stones with a holmium laser.
P Shamamian, M Grosso*, A Guth, T Diflo, SG Marcus, GF Coppa, K Eng. SA
Localio Laboratory for General Surgery Research and Department of Urology*,
New York University School of Medicine, New York, NY.
Primary intrahepatic stones (PHS), also known as cholangiohepatitis causes
recurrent Cholangitis and eventually leads to hepatic failure and death.
No commonly used therapy has been demonstrated to adequately clear the
intrahepatic ducts of calculi and prevent recurrent sepsis. Present therapy
consisting of biliary enteric bypass and hepatic resection is fraught with
complications and treatment failures. Significant advances in fiberoptic
endoscopy allow exploration of the intrahepatic biliary ducts and the
introduction of endoscopic accessories such as baskets, dilators and laser
fibers. We have adapted these advances in biliary endoscopy with a Holmium
laser lithotripter to treat PHS. The safety and efficacy of Holmium laser
lithotripsy for urinary tract calculi has been demonstrated. The Holmium
laser is ideal for PHS as it provides sufficient energy to "vaporize"
calculi, with minimal risk to adjacent tissue in experienced hands. To date
ten patients have been treated with laser lithotripsy (LLT). Access for LLT
was obtained via percutaneous biliary drains (5) or surgically placed
T-Tube tracts (5). Biliary drainage was established by biliary enteric
bypass (8) or endoscopic sphincterotomy (2). Five patients had prior
surgical therapy including two with left hepatic resections. With thorough
intrahepatic endoscopy, bilateral calculi were found in all patients,
demonstrating the futility of hepatic resection for this desease. At least
three LLT treatments were required for clearance of calculi, and no patient
with complete clearance has represented with biliary sepsis. All segments
of the intrahepatic ducts were accessed for LLT and the Holmium laser was
able fragment calculi regardless of chemical composition. No patient
required liver resection and there were no deaths following LLT. Three
patients had post LLT tachyarrhythmias and one patient developed a
subcapsular hematoma. In 24 patients treated by other methods at our
institution prior to the development of LLT, there were seven major
complications, 10 liver resections and one death. It is therefore clear
that LLT should be the preferred approach to PHS in order to provide stone
clearance, preserve hepatic parenchyma and prevent recurrent sepsis.
Society for Surgery of the Alimentary Tract, Inc.
6900 Grove Road
Thorofare, NJ 08086-9447
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- The Amazing Liver Cleanse by #161760
How do we know that stones are formed inside liver?
Why aren't doctors aware of the fact that stones are formed inside liver?
"The Amazing Liver Cleanse"
by Andreas Moritz
About this Book
Andreas Moritz addresses the most common but rarely mentioned or discussed cause of illness -- Gallstones congesting the liver. Twenty million Americans suffer from attacks of gallstones every year. In many cases, treatment consists of removing the gall bladder, at the cost of $5 billion a year. Yet many more Americans, including most people suffering a chronic illness such as heart disease, arthritis, MS, cancer, or diabetes, have hundreds if not thousands of gallstones (mainly clumps of hardened bile) blocking the bile ducts of the liver.
This book provides a thorough understanding of what causes gallstones in the liver and gall bladder and how gallstones in turn become the major cause of illness prevalent in modern societies. It provides the reader with the knowledge of how to recognize them and gives the necessary do-it-yourself instructions on how to remove them painlessly and in the comfort of one's home. It also gives practical guidelines as to how to prevent new stones from being formed -an essential part in any program of health care.
Preview of this Book
Most people believe that gallstones can be found only in the gall bladder. This is a false assumption. Most gallstones are actually formed in the liver and only a few in the gall bladder. This statement can easily be verified by anyone who gives himself a liver cleanse, regardless of whether he is a layperson, a medical doctor, a scientist, and someone who no longer has a gall bladder and is believed to be free of gallstones altogether.
An estimated 20% of the world's population will develop gallstones in their gall bladder at some stage in their lives. This figure, however, does not account for the many more people who will develop gallstones in the liver. From my personal experience as a health practitioner with thousands of patients suffering all types of diseases, I can document that each one of them has had large amounts of gallstones in the liver. Surprisingly, only relatively few of them have had a history of gallstones in the gall bladder. Gallstones in the liver are, as will be seen in this book, the main obstacle to maintaining health, youthfulness, and vitality. They are indeed one of the major reasons why people fall ill and have difficulty in recuperating from an illness.
The failure to recognize gallstones in the liver may be an important missing link in the field of medicine, both orthodox and complementary. By understanding how gallstones in the liver contribute to the development of almost every type of disease and by taking the simple steps of removing these obstructions, every person can discover for himself an easy method to restore health on a permanent basis. The implications of applying the liver cleanse for yourself or, if you are a health practitioner, for your patients, are both vast and rewarding. To have a clean liver is like having a clean start in life. The liver is the major controlling agent of normal growth and healthy functioning of all body cells are. Any malfunction, deficiency, or abnormal growth pattern of the cell is to a large extent due to an impaired liver performance. There is rarely a disease in the body that does not start in the liver. All diseases or symptoms of ill health are caused by obstruction. If a blocked blood vessel no longer allows delivery of vital oxygen or nutrients to a group of cells, the cells will be forced to introduce emergency measures or specific survival tactics. Many of the cells will not survive the 'famine', others will learn to mutate and live off other cells and toxic materials, which may turn them malignant or cancerous.
A constipated colon will prevent the body from eliminating the waste products contained in the feces. If a stone begins to obstruct the flow of urine in the urinary system, kidney infection or even kidney failure may result. If hardened mucous blocks the air passages of the lungs, we literally run out of breath. The thickening of blood or its restricted flow through the arteries can lead to many problems in the body, including skin diseases, arthritis, heart attacks and strokes. Any such or similar obstruction in the body is directly and indirectly linked to an impaired liver performance and in particular to a blockage caused by gallstones both in the liver and in the gall bladder. The presence of stones in these organs greatly impairs the digestion of food, elimination of waste, and detoxification of harmful substances in the blood. By unblocking the liver and gall bladder, the body's 60-100 trillion cells will be able to 'breathe' more oxygen, receive more nutrients, eliminate their metabolic waste products more efficiently, and maintain perfect communication links with the nervous system, endocrine system and all other parts of the body.
Although almost every patient with a chronic illness has an excessively large number of gallstones in the liver (this can easily be verified by having a liver cleanse), unless there is a specific liver disease, this important organ is rarely considered a 'culprit.' Since the majority of gallstones in the liver and gall bladder consist of the same 'harmless' constituents as are contained in liquid bile with cholesterol being their main ingredient, they are 'invisible' to X-ray technologies. Stones in the liver don't show up as solid whereas some of the gallstones (20 per cent) occurring in the gall bladder can be made up entirely of minerals, mainly calcium salts and bile pigment. Modern diagnostic tools can easily detect these hardened and relatively large stones but fail to recognize the softer and smaller ones in the liver. Only when there are excessive amounts of large stones in the liver can an ultrasound reveal a "fatty liver." In such case the ultrasound pictures show a liver that looks almost completely white (instead of dark). A fatty liver can have up to 6,000-8,000 stones before it succumbs to suffocation and ceases to function.
But even if the early stages of a fatty liver are recognized and diagnosed through ultrasound, this vital organ is hardly ever relieved of the heavy burden it has to "carry" by having accumulated hundreds and, in many cases, thousands of these hardened bile deposits which continuously block the liver's bile ducts. In view of the effect the stones have on liver performance as a whole, it is irrelevant whether the stones consist of mainly thickened cholesterol or are mineralized and hard. Whether we call them gallstones, fat deposits or clots consisting of hardened bile, the net result is that they prevent bile from flowing through the bile ducts.
Bile is a green colored, alkaline fluid with many functions. Apart from helping the digestion of fat, calcium, and protein foods, it is needed to maintain normal fat levels in the blood, to remove toxins from the liver, to help maintain proper acid/alkaline balance in the intestinal tract, and to keep the colon from breeding harmful microbes. To maintain a strong and healthy digestive system and to feed the body the right amount of nutrients, the liver has to produce between 1 and 1 quarts (1,1 -1,6 liters) of bile a day. Anything less than that (many people produce just about a cup full) is bound to cause problems with the digestion of food, elimination of waste and constant need for detoxifying the blood. Almost all health problems are a direct consequence of reduced or blocked bile production and inefficient bile transport.
People with chronic illnesses often have thousands of gallstones congesting the bile ducts of the liver. Some stones may have impacted the gall bladder as well. By removing the stones through a series of liver cleanses, and subsequently maintaining a healthy diet and lifestyle, the liver and gall bladder will be able to restore their natural efficiency, and most symptoms of discomfort or disease in the body will begin to subside. Allergies will lessen or disappear, back pain will dissipate, and energy and well being will improve dramatically. Cleansing the liver bile ducts from gallstones is one of the most important and powerful procedures to improve your health. In this book you will learn how to painlessly remove hundreds of gallstones which can range from the size of a pinhead to the size of a walnut. The actual cleanse takes place within a period of less than 14 hours and can conveniently be taken over a weekend at home.
This book further explains why gallstones blocking the bile ducts both inside and outside the liver can be considered to be the main cause of every major or minor illness. You will also find out the signs or marks that indicate the presence of stones in the liver or gall bladder. Other sections of the book deal with the possible causes of gallstones and how to prevent new ones from being formed. 'What can I expect from a liver cleanse' will cover some of the possible health benefits of this profound self-help program. The question and answer section deals with any queries you may have about the cleanse.
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- Re: The Amazing Liver Cleanse by nickie
I have done 8 liver cleanses and most of them have been pretty productive. I am discouraged though because I am still very gluten intolerant should I keep going , or should I try something else? Do the liver cleanses always do the trick? I have also done parasite cleanses and candida diets.
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